Video 12

12. Vedantasara | Texts 54-56 | Swami Sarvapriyananda

[Music] [Music] i take refuge in the self the indivisible the existence consciousness bliss absolute beyond the reach of words and thought the sub-stratum of all for the attainment of my cherished desire i thought i've been chanting that every day but it's good to give the translation to so in the vedanta sara which we have been studying they have been coming across the basic building blocks the basic definitions of advaita vedanta the system of advaita vedanta and now the question arises how does this entire universe come from brahman the ultimate reality the one how does it appear as the many so that's what that's what we're going to talk about now we have started we know that brahman is now associated with maya and we were told that maya has two powers the power of veiling and the power of projection it's like the classic example of the rope and the snake there's a rope which exists really and then there is ignorance of the rope and that ignorance has two powers one is it hides the rope from us i'm ignorant of the rope it literally means i don't know it's a rope i know there's something there but i don't know it's a rope and the second power is it um it makes some it it makes me commit an error a mistake i think it's a snake or something else i don't see the rope as a rope i see it as a snake by mistake similarly brahman is the reality and then it is associated with maya which is this cosmic ignorance this maya has two powers one is the veiling power which means that i do not understand or realize what brahman and the second is the projecting power which makes me see or experience brahman as this world this world of names and forms and bodies and minds samsara exactly like that now text number 54. so [Music] translation just as ignorance regarding a rope by its inherent power gives rise to the illusion of a snake etc in the rope covered by it so also ignorance by its own power creates in the self covered by it such phenomena as akasha etc such a power is called the power of projection it is that said the power of projection creates all from the subtle bodies to the cosmos all right so what was said here for this to happen for this uh you know um projection of the universe to happen basically what needs to happen is that there must be a truth and there must be ignorance of that truth and then only there can be some falsehood so two things are necessary for something that is unreal or false to to appear two things are necessary there must be some truth there cannot be a false snake without a real rope you see the rope must exist otherwise there would be no no question of making a mistake there cannot be a false snake without a real rope that's one so there must be some reality there cannot be a world appearance without the ground of this world appearance which is brahman then the second thing which is necessary is ignorance of the rope if the rope is known as a rope then again there cannot be a false snake there cannot be an error about the snake so there must be ignorance about the rope there must be the rope there must be the ignorance about the rope and then only there's a possibility of mistaking the possibility of seeing a snake by mistake and as he says snake etc that refers to the the original example where the friends were walking and in the semi darkness there's a rope there they don't see the rope as a rope they make different mistakes one person thinks it's a snake the other person thinks it's a flower garland discarded from a temple the third person thinks it's a crack in the earth you know caused by the last earthquake or something these are the different vikalpa that means various alternate errors falsity can be of many types the truth can be one but lies can be many there's one truth which if it is hidden people tell many kinds of lies that beautiful statement that there's only one way of standing up straight but there are many ways of falling down similarly the truth is one but falsity can be multiple errors can be multiple similarly brahman is the one reality and that is hidden or the the power of of maya to hide the truth that is called our shakti the wailing power that is hidden from us we do not know that but we make a mistake about it it is still there there is something and that something is now because of our ignorance the possibility of a mistake comes and we see it as samsara the example of of telling a lie when is a lie possible when can one tell a lie only when there is a truth if there is no truth there is no possibility of a lie also so if there is no brahman there is no possibility of samsara that's one the second condition is that not only there must be truth the truth must be unknown if somebody knows the truth you can't tell a lie a lie won't stick so the truth is there and the truth is unknown then only there is a possible possibility of misrepresenting the truth to telling it not not as it is but as it is not similarly there must be a reality and the reality must be unknown and then only there's a possibility of making a mistake about that reality now look at what was just said viktor shakti so what is the projecting power earlier the veiling power was talked about the veiling power which uh which prevents us from knowing brahman as it is yatha just like rajya gyanasawa the the ignorance about the rope um projects the ropes the the rope which is hidden or covered by that ignorance that rope swar shaktiya by its own power whose own power the power of that ignorance the ignorance has the potency by its own power surprise it projects it distorts it presents it in a wrong way as snake etc snake discarded garland um crack on the earth or whatever avam exactly in the same way that was an example agyanamapi in that in that same way ignorance here what ignorance are we talking about the original ignorance of not knowing the reality that ignorance maya swa avrit mani the atman the true self notice how it flips between using brahman and atman at the same time it means the same thing your reality the ultimate reality of the universe is your reality there's only one reality that reality is hidden by ignorance that's just a roundabout way of fancy way of saying we do not know it then what happens so by its own power by its own capacity whose own capacity the capacity of the power of ignorance maya akash it projects the entire universe pra pancha what is the entire universe akashadi space etc so we will see space is brahman itself is misunder mis perceived it appears as as space and air and fire and water and earth and all the combinations thereof all that's going to happen the entire universe is going to come five cosmic elements these are and the entire universe made of the five so prapanja prakrishta rupena punch in sanskrit prabang literally means that which is made out of five what are the five pancha means five what are the five space uh air fire water earth and we'll see how those elements come out and then out of those five elements the entire universe is created the same maya hides brahman and projects brahman as the five elements and the entire universe from made of the five elements everything is made of the elements projected by maya now just a little note here now we're going to talk about the construction of the projection of the entire universe the universe which we are familiar with it's important to know it is not a scientific project immediately our tendency because we are in the age of science and we know so much about the universe now in so much detail you will notice one thing it's not science as we know it as we moderns know it and also the description of the universe seems one it's rather sketchy and number two very anthropocentric very human-centric the reason is this they were not engaged in a scientific project let us not forget what is going on here what is going on here superimposition d superimposition it's a method of teaching brahman it's a method to attain enlightenment that's all it is from their perspective we have tied us ourselves up in illusion like the donkey which was tied up by a non-existent rope now we have to this this complication has to be we have to be eased out of our illusion that's all they're doing they're not interested in developing science and technology so it's not a serious attempt to understand the material universe second you will see that the subtle body has five senses so somebody might question um subtle bodies five senses why not other senses there are animals which have other kinds of senses um snakes have infrared vision for example bats have echo location with us like a sonar you know uh dolphins and whales they also have this like a sonar they use multiple sensors are there why only five senses the answer is this whole thing is meant as a teaching device for us human beings and that to human beings who are interested in enlightenment so it has to describe us properly it's a very detailed description of ourselves human beings that is there it's a pretty detailed description and the more inner you go physical body just a overall description will be given subtle body more detailed mind and intellect and more and more detailed more precise you will see as it comes closer and closer to the self the more precise and more careful it becomes because the whole goal is to show that we are brahmana another example will be later on we will see life when it when they talk about the coming of life we'll talk about broadly four categories of living bodies we might think only four when we were school students we studied you know detailed biology uh we i remember you know we've all we all studied it species and genera and phyla and so much detail study of of life and life forms where is all that just four categories remember again it's so just a sketchy outline of the universe just enough to serve us that you get a sense of familiarity okay this is the universe they're talking about and then the retreat will start again the inward movement towards realizing yourself as brahman so that's just a note i wanted to put out there um it is not meant to be a description of a scientific description shankaracharya says that i mean in one place in the chandragyu opanesha this question is raised we're talking about five elements here chandragupta in one place three elements are mentioned space and air are not mentioned just fire water and earth so there's an interesting question raised so the universe is made of five elements or three elements and the answer given there is very interesting that is not a pertinent question because we are not particularly interested in the actual scientific investigation of what the universe is made of then what are you doing why are you doing all this and then the answer is given there that this is all a technique upaya a technique of directing our attention from where our attention is stuck in the universe taking our attention turning it around towards ourselves investigating ourselves and realizing that we are brahmana that's the purpose of this entire exercise so just to put it out there now what was said here uh the self which is covered so shaktiya by its own power ignorance by its own power projects five elements and the whole universe made of the five elements i'm sure i must have told you the joke about the pra pancho mitadiya no i told you so i won't repeat that then he gives a quote from um another prakaranagranth this actually we have read in drikdrisha viveka this quote he says the projecting power of maya projects the entire universe from subtle body up to external universe lingard india subtle body from subtle by starting with subtle body up to the external universe remember what did he leave out he left out the causal body and ultimate reality brahman brahman is there causal body that is maya is there now from subtle body onwards up to the entire universe is is projected by the projecting power of maya maya itself is the causal body and beyond that is the reality which is brahman up to that and so this is what we have done so far now a question will arise in indian philosophy they talk about so what is the cause of the universe you're saying that brahman is the cause of the universe or maya is the cause of the universe but technically speaking two kinds of causes they talk about nimit so a potter makes a pot so the potter is the is called the efficient cause of the intelligent cause the nimit karna the reason the one who makes the pot but the partner needs some material to make the pot and the material is the clay so the potter uses instruments makes the clay into a pot now the question would be here is this universe who or what is the intelligent cause or the the efficient cause behind it nimitz and what is the material out of which the universe is made and the answer will be that it is brahman alone there's only one thing which could be the cause brahman existence consciousness place which is the material and the efficient cause of the universe only remember one thing the universe is not a real creation it's more like a snake appearing in a rope a more like a mirage water appearing in a mirage not an actual creation not that brahman is transformed like clay into some kind of action is taking place in brahman no um so bruh the answer will be the question is what is the nimitta karnam the efficient cause and what is the material cause upadhana karna and the answer will be brahman by itself is both the nametakaranam and the material course the non-different the one non-different efficient and material cause of the universe is brahman now there are some details to be discussed here 55. [Music] consciousness associated with ignorance possessed of these two powers when considered from its own standpoint is the efficient cause and when considered from the standpoint of its upadhi or limitation is the material cause of the universe just one more text that i'll explain 56 [Music] just as the spider when considered from the standpoint of its own self is the efficient cause of the web and when looked upon from the standpoint of its body is also the material cause of the web so first he gives an example and this example is from the munda copanishad the upanishad itself is the example example of what how does the one become the many how does your non-dual brahman no two become the two and the many uh how does the universe proceed from brahman so the example given in the munda kopanishad is three examples are given just as um the spider projects the web from its own body just as um herbs and plants come out from the earth just as hairs come out from our from a living body so does the entire universe appear in the unchangeable brahman that's the original text of the upanishad um so beautiful poetry just as spider from it from a spider a web is pun so does the universe come from from the imperishable brahman just as plants and herbs come from the earth so does the universe arise in brahman just as hair maybe even nails and all they grow in a living body so does this universe appear in brahman by three examples so you can think about it one three examples one is the spider the spider does two things one is it is a living being a sentient being so you can say that that sentient being the living being called the spider is the limit the efficient cause of the web it is spinning the web for its own purpose that's one second is it is what material does it use itself its own body its own body so the web comes out of its own body exactly like that the intelligence the consciousness behind this universe is brahman remember what brahman are we talking about here brahman limited by or empowered by maya brahman plus maya not just the absolute reality brahman so brahman plus maya which is in other words god saguna brahman ishwar that's what we are talking about here so saguna brahman with maya from its own perspective as consciousness is the one which projects the universe just like the spider for its own purposes projects the web so it is called the nimitta karanam efficient cause but just as the spider projects the way from its own body ishwara projects this universe from ishwara's own maya or brahman's own maya the power just like the body of the spider so is maya the body let's say within quotes body of ishwara it is called the causal body karna shaleera and it it projects the universe now the question may be that so the spider works really hard to make a web and we dust it and clean it up every sunday or something but the poor spider works really hard to make a web and so does god have to work very hard to make this universe no effortlessly how plants and herbs come out of the earth similarly effortlessly does this universe arise in brahman and then so is brahman then you know like an in in sentient like like a force like a like a power like a brute you know like material thing like the earth so no this entire material universe arises from a sentient being just like hair which arises from the living body so it's a living body from our living bodies something like hair arises similarly from from god from saguna brahman the entire universe arises so three examples are given there was this early european indologist who reading this said that the ancient hindus worshipped a gigantic spider this is not true it's yatai the word yatha means just like it's an example yata means an example just like the spider produces the web so brahman is both the material and the efficient cause of the universe remembering always not really don't take it seriously brahman has not done anything at all if you ask the rope so you are mr rope you are the material and efficient cause of the snake the rope will say what snake i have no idea what you're talking about i'm just a rope so if you ask brahman you are the material and efficient cause of the universe no what universe am brahmana have always have been brahman so it's an appearance and all this is an exp a method to untie the donkey remember the donkey which was tired yeah so nothing whatsoever is happening now you can look at the text which we just read 55 chaitanya what consciousness absolute reality no it is the absolute reality already conditioned upahitam conditioned associated by limited with why by what agana ignorance here it means maya and this maya has two powers shakti dua with two powers remember which two power projecting power veiling power swap pradhana from its own perspective whose perspective perspective of consciousness nimitzam is the efficient cause so padha pradhan from the perspective of its upadhi i've already told you what an upadhi is so what is the upadhi of god maya from the perspective of maya upadhanam is the material cause so this is an important doctrine of advaita vedanta that brahman alone is the material cause and the efficient cause of the universe and again the fine print not really because nothing has really happened brahman is the efficient cause just like the spider is the efficient cause from the point of view of being a living creature and brahman is also the material cause from the point of view of being off of maya just as the spider is the material cause the point of view of its body it causes makes the web just like it makes the vibram and also makes the universe or projects the universe then 56 yata lutha uruna navi is a sanskrit word for spider lutha is another sanskrit word for spider tantu with respect to the web cardium itself effect is a product of the spider itself from its own perspective whose perspective spiders perspective nimittam is the efficient cause intelligent cause from its bodily perspective it is the material what's the material of the web body of the spider what's the intelligent efficient cause behind the web the spider itself similarly what's the material of this universe maya everything is made of mine that's this is where that borrowing from the sankhya doctrine of three gunas satwara just this becomes useful because now vedanta will say everything is made of three gunas or the entire universe including the five elements which are going to be produced now all right before we go ahead let me just see what is the activity in the chat and questions too literally says so they are saying science as we know it is part of the illusion this is a difficult question they are not saying anything about science i don't think they were talking about science the way we understand science today but what would they say what do what does an advaitan say two views let me give you a radical view a physicist once told me in india he had gone to a great advaita teacher at that time one of the greatest living teachers at that time and the teacher asked him what do you do he said i'm a physicist and the teacher said oh physics that's maya forget all that and come to the advaita as a reality and the scientist was hurt when he heard this so that's a radical view and it's justifiable from pure advaithic perspective even science is so much superstition let alone the rest of religion religion science all our worldly activities they are all products of maya they are all products of this projection so that's one attitude towards science but there's the other attitude towards science vivekananda when he came here to the west he was very interested not just when he was here even before that when he was in calcutta he would be always up to date with the latest today if you were there he would be reading all the latest papers publications uh he would be so happy with it he said knowledge is sacred the greatest gift that we have is the human intellect and knowledge and so every realm of knowledge including science is is extremely important it that is also a manifestation of brahman so you can see it as two things the same thing is the false snake maya and its products or the same thing itself is the real rope brahman so you can see it from the perspective of oneness that whatever you see here is one with brahman including science or you can see it from the perspective of the falsity of the universe everything here is a projection the ultimate reality is beyond words and concepts so vivekananda's attitude towards science was not only conciliatory but also of appreciation and we know how he got along famously so well with nikola tesla not the car the scientist so he was and tesla was very impressed by vivekananda then uh william james and uh last year when i was at harvard i was speaking with stephen pinker and i told him that your office is in william james hall and did you know of the connection between william james and vivekananda he was surprised he didn't know that he was very interested to hear about that then edison we have records of edison having long conversations with swami abhidji visiting edison's laboratory and so on so swami rangana sanji in recent years was very interested in the latest developments of science neuroscience in all these areas and today from vedantic perspective i find uh the progress in consciousness studies of special interest to us in today's age so yeah so you can look at it both ways then krishnamurti it is sheikharit i think it's totally acceptable to put forward a model of the universe even science can only describe a model of the universe as we don't really know in physics what the universe is really made of despite how much we elevate our modern science correct i agree totally it is a model of the universe you know just as a short note here when we talk about earth fire water it seems very primitive but remember this was a common uh model across the ancient world not just vedanta every indian philosophy sort of shared this idea the chinese and the greeks or the ancient philosophers they basically they had this idea and you can see why if you look around what do you see you see solid things and liquid things and airy stuff you see heat um and you see space you can see where the idea of space and air and fire and water and earth have come from a more more sophisticated idea was developed by the vaishika philosophers philosophers they said look at our experience of the world when we as human beings experience the world so we have these five senses and our sensory experience it must be experience of something so um so our sound we hear sound and so they thought that the basis of sound must be space we now know it's actually not just space it's air so some medium is necessary for sound to propagate but they thought sound is so sound means that there must be some element behind sound called space we feel touch so there must be some movement which is creating this touch that movement they called air we feel we see form with our eyes so there must be something which gives visual forms and they called it radiance or fire then we have taste so there must be something which produces that taste and they called it water and then we have smell so there must be something some particles which produce that that's actually how smell works really um so behind smell is the element earth so they said the most primitive element space has only one property sound the next element air has two properties sound and touch the next element fire has three properties sound touch and form and then the next one water has four properties sound touch form and taste and finally earth has all the five properties it's uh you can hear it if you you know like tap it you can hear the earthy element you can touch it you can you can see it you can taste it and you can smell it so this was a whole model they developed based on again our experience of the universe not illogical a pretty fine model actually if you make it subjective from our perspective a question would be can these be mapped onto our modern physics my answer to you is don't try but it does not mean it has not been tried actually pretty good minds had tried it there was a scientist john dobson he was an astrophysicist an astronomer also he popularized this what a movement in los angeles called the sidewalk telescope to popularize astronomy among young people he lived in our hollywood ashram for a long time long before my time so i never saw him he was a disciple of swami ashok and swami ashokan had given him one project that what is the connection between the ancient cosmology of these five elements and modern physics so he wrote actually there are books published i think about it right to me it doesn't seem very convincing so just take it as a model being used by these philosophers as a part as a component of their overall project of superimposition and superimposition a method of untying the donkey that's all is maya the material cause yes my as the material cause um shavani brahman is both material efficient cause what is the role of maya in this universe or my is just a statement of fact to explain the model of the khan right maya is the material cause i'll just make a short statement here um in what sense is brahman the cause and in what sense is my other cause so i'll make a distinction between vivata karana and parinami karana vivarta karna means the ground of appearance the ground of appearance the rope is the cause of the snake not really it's the cause of the snake insofar as without the rope there would not be a snake the desert is the cause of the mirage water not really insofar as without the desert there would be no appearance of the mirage water there would be no mistake at all the sky colorless sky is the cause of the error of seeing a blue sky or the optical illusion of a blue sky not that the sky has become blue but it is without the sky it's the ground of that it's weird to call the sky the ground off but anyway similarly brahman is the uh ground of the era of of the universe vivarta means apparent um manifestation non-transformative just as the rope without becoming a snake looks like a snake the desert without becoming watery looks like an oasis the sky without becoming blue looks blue brahman without anything happening looks like the universe is experienced as the universe maya on the other hand is transformed into the universe so parinami karna means transformation cause that which is actually transformed milk is transformed into yogurt a seed is actually transformed into a seedling it sprouts so something which is a cause which transforms into its effect if the cause remains as a cause without actually transforming into an effect just looks like the effect it's called the viverta karna means apparent manifestation or manifestation appearance brahman appears as the universe maya is transformed into the universe this is the difference so maya is the material cause of the universe maya is the material cause which is transformed into the universe it's just a fancy way of saying uh just like our classical example of the slope and the snake the rope only appears as the snake at no point does the rope actually become anything like a snake whereas our ignorance of the rope is actually you can say it is transformed into a snake and an apparent snake it is our ignorance alone which is actually you can kind of transformation takes place it is the cause real cause of our error okay is there anything else that i wanted to say here remember this is transformative cause now here the huge amount of philosophy and theology has been done on this so for example um the difference between pantheism and pan enthiesm so was spinoza a pantheist or a pan atheist pantheism is that the god has become the world and that leads to a lot of trouble a lot of problems if actually god has become tables and chairs of good and bad and evil god has actually become hitler that lit really leads lots of problems really um it's not much of a god then then god is gone whereas god appears as the world or god is reflected in the world or the world appears in god there is pan-enthusiasm that is much closer to what spinoza actually meant and much closer to advaita vedanta a lot of lot of discussions about this okay then what caused nir guna brahman to become saguna brahman didn't become nothing caused in kuna brahman to become sargon gonna brahman isn't it absolute remains absolute then what about sagunda brahman it is natguna brahman limited by maya you just said it has not become been transformed not been limited true the limitation is also apparent because maya is not a separate reality it's not something that actually does something to sagan abraham i don't know brahman of absolute remains as the absolute the rest of it from saguna brahman from maya downwards is a matter of explaining it to us how the one appears as the many and why what is the point of all of this the point is to show us the way back to the absolute show us the way back to nirguna brahman to the realization that i am that all right sravani says five elements is generally accepted across hindu schools correct sankhya is the origin no um shankar's origin for the sattva rajasthan the five elements i think uh there you know pernicious it's mentioned in the theory of punishment did the sages use any method in mental instrument reducing yes i just said how it was reduced into five elements mental instrument is our perceptions from a human perspective five kinds of perceptions and the basis of these five kinds of perceptions sound form taste touch smell the basis for these are the five elements kishore says how does maya affect saguna brahman is unaware of brahman no maya does not affect saginaw brahman maya is the power of sakura brahman and he is unaware of need not at all sagan abraham is god ishwara ever enlightened so god always knows that god that i am brahman brahmasmi is always true of god we have to realize it but god has ever realized and the avatars of god are also realized that that they are brahmana so that's that's always there their enlightenment their realization the knowledge of the avatars and of god is never obscured by maya okay um is maya considers this a huge huge question question is maya considered as real no so it's unreal no we studied it remember the definition of so-called definition cannot be expressed as absolutely real cannot be expressed as absolutely unreal you will say ah you are ever avoiding the question not at all actually this is a category that we are used to in life tell me what is fiction story books movies theater is it really real do those things really happen no is it nothing completely non-existent no you'll say it's fiction correct so maya is that in between category which is not absolutely real like the like nir guna brahman but it's not nothing also it's not totally zero like um say a square circle or the classic example of the sky flower or the bandhaputra and so on okay is any relationship with holy spirit in christianity and maya difficult to say i mean it the trinity concept and vedanta is difficult i wouldn't say that really because christianity is basically uh it's either a dualistic religion or the closest it gets is to vishishta dwighta but vishita also that's not correct i can see a howl of protest across those were traditional scholars dualistic vedanta is pretty close to christian theology okay let's quickly take a look at the questions okay stop me if i'm getting this wrong but um we say brahmana plus maya gives rise to ishwar gives rise to god and that sounds kind of sequential or which makes it sound like they're at a most fundamental level there isn't god doesn't exist there's this brahman which has not yet interacted or used its mayak power to give rise to god am i right so far you're right except that the sequential model will uh is good for explanations so it's a good way of understanding it no note that really doesn't happen um what it's like saying rope is real accepted we don't know the rope accepted and the next sequence will be the appearance of the the rope plus ignorance which will produce the snake but notice by this time it has we have moved from reality to appearance so sequential yes but note that only brahman remains real throughout and the rest of it is appearance and then part of this whole thing is that you know i'm always kind of amazed and awed by the the vast intelligence that's displayed in every bit of creation however we look at it and um it just seems like um almost sacrilegious or something some to brush it off as non-existent or it's just an illusion it's an illusion okay because it's not what it appears to be but i i'm always awed by what a marvelous illusion and you know the the intelligence that is implied or that is revealed by the complexity of it all and um i'm not sure i haven't quite turned this into a question yet but perhaps you can see where i'm going with it the there's go ahead if i might intervene here so this is a a point that bill conrad who is here i think so he's a biophysicist sister and see this is the point he keeps on raising the enormous complexity in this universe whether you take life or physics he was talking about the recent discovery and confirmation of the gravitational waves but you know how is this a problem we are not saying that this complexity does not exist at the level of maya at the level at which we are experiencing the universe this complexity is is there all scientific investigation uh you know uncovers it the more we are uncovering the more we are learning all of it is fine the dream analogy the snake rope analogy they're just that their analogies all it is saying is suppose you want to take this as real this universe advaita actually has no problem with that advaita says yes this universe is real in the sense that you consider things to be real in that sense the universe is real in comparison to there is a deeper reality brahman in comparison to which it begins to seem like a fiction that's what it's saying it's not a fiction like our movies it's not a fiction like our dreams it's not even a fiction like a snake in a rope it's not saying that brahman is a rope and the universe is a snake no uh it just saying it's like that nothing in science tells us that there cannot be a deeper underlying reality i guess what i'm getting at is that the complexity and beauty of it seems to imbue it with a purpose kind of a divine purpose and so that in light of that it seems like um it seems that brushing it off as mere illusion negates the the fact that there does seem to be this this purpose oh but even illusion that could be there could be a purpose in it um according to vedanta this entire universe is a creation projection saguna brahman of god now at that level if you ask why would god project this is there a purpose behind it yes there is a purpose at that level there is god there are the sentient beings like us who need up you know experiences who need a universe to go through to evolve and to come into realization of the absolute so there is an entire purpose to this the sankey philosophy for example says that maya their prakriti nature projects the universe and it has a purpose and the purpose is twofold from the sunken perspective one purpose is bhoga the other one is upper varga bhoga means experience means release so purpose remember purpose is always purpose for consciousness no um absolutely material entity could ever have purpose see that's the way the whole clash between modern atheists and uh non-atheists are these are is there but uh what scientists someone like richard dawkins or somebody else is this trying to say that there's really ultimately no purpose to this universe there's no purpose or meaning to it except what you give sean carol one of the nicer voices among the new atheists for example will say no no there is meaning but the meaning is what you give to it so it stands there that the material universe has no purpose or meaning to it but meaning and purpose is there for us as sentient beings and sankey says exactly that the material universe is there for two purposes one to give you the sentient beings experience all sorts of experiences life after life and finally to give you release freedom enlightenment release advaita vedanta has taken all of that he says yes god creates this universe projects this universe you are sentient beings in it and the whole thing is meant to make you go through a life and ultimately the as you go through it progress enough you end up in vidantasara class and so that's the whole purpose of the universe from god's perspective except that advaita vedanta adds a wrinkle to it that even this purpose and all of that is still within the appearance nature because ultimately you are nir guna brahman you don't even need this purpose it is it is all within the realm of appearance it seems like it's not just our purpose though it's some kind of cosmic or divine purpose and it it seems like ultimately it must it's it's it's strange to say well the whole purpose of this is to get out of it as soon as possible and to you know to kind of like merge back with the ocean as if it ever never happened uh there seems to be is something gained by all this there's that t.s eliot line about rediscovering the you know that from which we came and discovering it for the first time you know that line right right um something there seems to be a value-added thing too going through this whole dance you you journey and then um ultimately you come back not to see new things but to see old things with new eyes so i think it was from ulysses or something like that there's this uh um yeah so take every bit of it as valuable advertising is not against it see note snake rope dream movie these are examples we're not saying our life right now is like like a snake row our life has multiple levels of reality so there is this level of reality called paramartica which means absolute truth or ultimate truth which is the only nirkuna brahmana then there is the level of reality called vewaharika transactional reality which is us what we are doing right now religion science all of that universe physical universe and all the complexity of that art all the beauty of that that's relative reality below that is the level of illusions dreams errors snake rope dream mirage all of that which appears but we know is not as real as this physical world now advaita vedanta is not saying that this physical world we are experiencing is like a um is is equal to a snake mistakenly seen in a rope or a dream which is meant to be woken up from immediately no dream snake and all are good examples to point out to the relationship between this world which is as real as you want to make it all that advaita would want to say is that there is a deeper reality there is a higher reality i remember um this gentleman is a mathematician at oxford university i met him at all of all places at shivananda yoga ashram in bahamas um i forget his name marcus marcus du satoy he's the professor of mathematics at oxford he's a successor to richard dawkins in a particular government post for you know for promotion of scientific spirit in uh in the public so he has taken the exact opposite approach to religion from his predecessor so richard dawkins was a militant atheist attacking religion all the time marcus says that his approach is conciliated he wants to understand the spirit of religion and explain the spirit of science to believing people anyhow when we we had discussions we've actually i went to his how he invited me for uh dinner to his uh his home in london when i visited england so we had this discussion he said all of this what you're talking about does it invalidate science the answer is no can you know new things and are those things valid yes you can know new and newer things about this world are those things valid they are valid at their behavioral level at the transactional level science is real and science works at that level advaita vedanta has no contradiction at all with any scientific pursuit within any artistic pursuit or even religious pursuit it makes all of it possible good thank you i'm like bill conrad i'll keep chewing on this that's good for now that's right because it's it's a common problem because the more you hear about snakes and ropes and mirages and dreams you begin to see that that's what this world is then no they are not equivalent compared to the absolute reality this is an appearance that's all they're saying who else is uh asking a question yes uh good evening swamiji i have two questions one is that yes last time you mentioned that you will point to the verse number right where uh speaks about the intuitive jump and the other one is that while all of this knowledge is you know extremely fascinating and you know interesting to learn and absorb but from the practical perspective is it enough just to know and understand and actually see in in practice that everything is an object i am not the object at every thing is i'm saying as i am it just appears as object to me because that seems to be the quintessence of vedanta you the question is that uh if i would take the quintessence of vedanta is that everything is an object yes whatever it is like i am the pure consciousness that absorbs and looks at it all of the objects are are actually me consciousness but it appears to me in different you know shapes and forms and names so is that knowledge enough to attain aggression or you need to actually go and study all of the details uh about various aspects of my and how it all organized oh so all the details are not necessary the essential the two-step breakthrough first you realize what uh they're talking about when they talk about pure consciousness or pure being and then you realize that is the only thing that exists and then you might have a problem of um i sort of get it but it's not real to me yeah so that's where i am or yeah it can be put in another way that i i i made the breakthrough but i can't i'm not stable in it so realization and stabilization are understanding and then making it a living reality that would be the thing to to do next so they're the role of vedantic meditation to the many ways of staying with that uh understanding or realization until it you can honestly say it's effortless that's the whole purpose all of this this equips you to study the original texts of vedanta which are the upanishads which is where all this knowledge comes from distilled from it's good in a way it helps you in the shower manager needed a process this is the process basically it's part of that right um often we find that all right i've got a sense of it but many of the doubts which come up later on they wouldn't come up if we had under if you had undergone a systematic study from the ground up which is what we are doing here so do we need to read all the vedanta books not at all not at all there are many books that are huge books of dialectics multiple objections and their answers to that your spiritual seeker need not go into that if you're interested it's there but if you're not interested it's fine all you need is say for example all you need is the mandukya and i'm saying that on the authority of vedanta itself mandukya mekamewalam manduka by itself is sufficient we muktanam um for those who seek liberation to give them liberation the manduka is enough by itself one text at least is enough ashtavakra is enough all right the text numbers you want are what is exactly enlightenment the details of it are there in this book from text number 172 text number 172 you have to jump ahead and read those things from 172 to 180 172 to 180 so the question which is dealt with is what exactly is enlightenment um you say that the mind is necessary for enlightenment and then you say that the mind is enlightenment cannot be attained by the mind it is beyond the mind how can both be true so obviously in some sense the mind is necessary in some sense the mind is not necessary so what exactly is going on here that's a discussion a very nice discussion but it needs explanation so you you can read it if you want to but you have to wait pranam swamiji yes so i'm kind of building up maybe repeating some of the things that are already said by rick and maybe bill has been saying it but just coming from a purely scientific background some of these things may sound very off the wall-ish if you will and you know that everything is coming out of this consciousness there are no objects but then with your pointers i'm just sort of laying it out and i want to see if you think i'm thinking along the right lines so this whole um point that rishi muniz actually had this as an experience it's not just a book that's telling us so it's not just a scientific theory it's actually someone who had this experience if you will and they saw these things coming out all these pancha that was coming out of you know whatever the chaitanya if you will but i just keep thinking swamiji that of course i have no experience of that sort but i do go to sleep every night and i know the world goes disappears uh every night for me but i am there there is something that is always there and then i wake up and the whole world comes dancing right in front of me including this class and all the interactions and i repeat this every every day and i still kind of doubt my own experience is it something that is that is maya that's telling me although i see it and i believe it and i have the you know the confidence that rishi money is what they saw is true but then this science part of me which probably is part of this maya is again making me doubt go to another class read another book even though it's all very clear in a way that defies all the books or the scientific explanations you know it's my own experience every night why do i not believe that and hold on to it what's what's stopping me well neither blame science nor take the support of science science is not stopping you from enlightenment it is just our samskaras and we need um the proper preparation where this will lead to that moment of enlightenment notice even after an enlightenment nothing will contradict science science operates at the vehicle level and all the findings of science are perfectly valued advaita has no conflict yeah advaita is a conflict when it when you go from science to a materialistic reductionist world view that's a world view that's not something proven by science what i'm saying there's a big difference between a world view and the actual discoveries of science the actual discoveries of science nobody should doubt advaita has no contradiction with the actual discoveries of science but the world view which is a materialistic world view it says that this world of time space matter energy is the only reality this is the reality and your consciousness and whatever you're talking about must be a an after thought um a subsequent by-product of kind of organic matter your brains and nervous systems that's it no that is where the problem is don't start with science when you're doing science do science but when trying to understand advaita vedanta don't start with science a very valuable instruction there is sadhus who wandering around in the mountain sides of the himalayas such extraordinary insights we look stupid compared to them we modern people i'll give you one insight think about it thunderous insight if you start your enquiries from a material object your ultimate analysis will land you up in a material reality there's no other way you will be forced to reduce somehow consciousness to material reality also but if you start with consciousness you will end up with the consciousness as the ultimate reality start with awareness start with mind as um start your enquiry there notice when they're talking about the five elements where are they starting they are starting with our experience we see hear smell taste touch then what could be behind it the indian so the vaishyashika thinkers they thought about five elements but when are they starting they're starting with your own experience notice this scientific enquiry every enquiry has to start with you as the conscious enquirer is it not true who else is inquiring now it was you see we have to look at the scientific method itself it was found very soon that you need not keep saying that to the inquirer to the experimenters consciousness these results are appearing because the experimenter's consciousness was com was common to all of it so why keep on bringing the subject into it eliminate the subject be objective that's how science progresses but in doing that very soon it was forgotten that all this objective enquiry was being carried out by a subject this was forgotten completely and now when the enquiry is into the subject in consciousness studies that whole objective approach is now becoming like a ghost on our head you see the sheer ridiculousness i am studying consciousness consciousness studies and the immediate next step is so let me see how an octopus reacts to this kind of experiment you have conscious you are conscious are you unconscious why do you have to go to an octopuses consciousness it's like saying let me study life by first killing the animal and then we'll study life itself no consciousness is the first fact if you want to study consciousness consciousness is available directly to you as conscious beings mind is available to you as mental beings anyway um so just one related point swamiji on this um so you mentioned my sanskaras and vasanas and i understand that part also is that there is something deep inside in those impressions that probably is hindering some of this understanding when we are awake when we are in deep sleep those things also go to sleep and that's why we kind of experience this oneness and then when the many-ness comes in the morning uh those sanskaras also come into the play and i think there was a related question probably in that rupert spider discussion on the long path versus short path or whatever um so is this something we need to distance ourselves during the waking hours from the samskaras and say that belongs no no no no i'm the chaitanya absolutely no no no no no remember advaita vedanta simple and direct don't mix it up with samskaras the only problem is ignorance and the only solution is knowledge that's what vedantist has been telling us you don't know we are not aware of the reality underlying our experiences which is consciousness or existence brahman we don't know it we don't see it that's the only problem when knowledge comes when we realize it when we make the breakthrough the same subscribers maybe there may not be there they won't be a problem anymore you can still deal with them some scatters have to be dealt with by purifying the mind that's a different process altogether that but that's not crucial if you put the that's what i'm asking if you put the sanskritis to sleep will you become enlightened no can deep sleep make you enlightened you see the conditioning of the mind is what is keeping me in bondage not at all never neither the mind keeps you in bondage not the body keeps you in bondage only ignorance keeps you in bondage after becoming enlightened the same mind will still be there the body will be there but you realize everything is brahman only ignorance of the gold nature makes us not know what the ornament is the form of the ornament whether it's a necklace or it is a bangle or it is a ring it has nothing to do with the reality which is gold all that you have to do is realize that it is gold it can bangle can still be a bangle necklace can still be a necklace by transforming a necklace into a bangle you will not realize the truth the truth is to be realized by knowing that it is gold so whatever the fall whatever the samskaras whatever is going on here the reality has to be seen as as as brahman and that is done by an enquiry into our conscious experience not even believing in what the rishi munis have seen not necessary you advaita brings us back to your conscious experience now and step by step um it is not asking you to believe it it's trying to show you something there's a difference between telling us and showing us these books tell us and then the ultimate method is to show us what the reality is the tenth man has to be shown that he is the tenth man you counted the nine and then now there's a tenth man so advaita vedanta is trying to do that start with conscious most important point i made in this whole science and um without the debate start with the scientific worldview you'll end up with materialism at least the way science stands now you'll end up with materialism and if you are a honest and careful scientist you'll end up with materialism with a big question mark that we don't know enough yet that will be the thing start with consciousness start with awareness you'll end up with at least santia if not advaita vedanta you might say no why will i start there are two things object and subject why will i start with the subject why will i not start with the object the answer is very obvious the object appears to the subject you first then you are samsara you first then your science how does science proceed first it makes an assumption it it brackets out it cancels out you the observer and then does science advaita asks why why are you doing that why not first investigate you the one investigator and then you can do science after that the point is once you investigate the investigator you will end up with the reality which is existence consciousness place okay thank you um you really run out of time anybody else is there i think sravani has a hand up in the last class i think you mentioned um that the when in vedanta sarah individual or jiva refers to uh the prague our deep sleep state the prague and not the the glorious mind body and all that no no no that's the beginning of the jiva see we are just at the root of everything the root of the jiva is you in your deep sleep state that's the most primitive form okay next will come you in your dream state next will come you in your physical material existence as shamany so up to that um this will continue what is this is this is called adhyaropa superimposition superimposition has just started from the ultimate reality we have now imposed the um the agyana ignorance and that is called the causal body so the ultimate reality brahman plus this individual ignorance is prague the beginning of the jiva the you in your most elementary state which is us like what we experience in deep sleep okay so it was just telling about the seed form of the genome yeah the beginning of the jiva the beginning the other question i think in one of the previous classes we discussed that pragma is an ishwara at the same and is is described as bright very bright and all that like it's almost a state but is it only something that we um like this equivalence between ishwara and uh like the individual does it happen only in the uh like deep sleep state which is something beyond our control or is there something that we can approach consciously through meditation and yes i guess in the mystical um experience you can experience deliberately experience a oneness with ishvara as a jiva retaining your jivahood you can experience oneness oneness with ishwara through a mystical experience but that don't that that'll have a beginning that will have an end we are not god we may feel awareness of with god through practices but advaita vedanta is not interested in these things advaita vedanta says what is prior to god what is prior to you as jiva that's what advaita is interested in so this is where i'm experiencing maya and uh like the very root of maya like the very beginning so when we if we practice vedantic meditation does it does it take in that route or not at all when you consciously just discriminate that i'm the like i'm the conscious observer witness so do we at all uh feel that state of the similar to the deep sleep state at all like when i'm just um there are no activities of the mind at all do we reach such a state it could be one can reach that and that will be if we consciously reach that that will be nirvikalpa samadhi but even that is not something vedante is interested in vedanta says that you are the turia witness of the three states i'll just leave you with this interesting point to think about advaita non-dual non-dual knowledge and non-dual experience our experience of the world in a waking state is dualistic i am the subject and i experience a multi-faceted reality our experience in dream state is dualistic i experience multiplicity in dreams many things many people many things are going on change but my experience in deep sleep if you can call it an experience is non-dualistic there is no experience or an experienced let alone the differentiation of the experienced objects no differentiation of experienced objects in fact no differentiation of experiencer and experienced also no subject object differentiation multiplicity of objects is not experienced and the subject object duality is also not experienced so you can call deep sleep and experience of um of non-duality and experience of non-duality which we all have it doesn't help us and it's very refreshing to go into that and come out of it but it does not help us spiritually at all advaita is not interested in that advaita is interested in turiya the fourth not the waker who's experiencing plurality not the dreamer who's experiencing plurality not the deep sleeper who's experiencing non-duality but rather the fourth who is the witness of the first three to whom the waking dreaming and deep sleep appear and disappear to whom plurality appears and disappears to whom non-duality appears and disappears that one is the true non-dual state not state that one is the true non-dual reality deep sleep is a non-dual state which comes and goes and that is um it's a state it's not the reality the reality is the fourth the theory and that's what you are actually that's what advaita wants to point so when you are advaita would say you are non-dual in waking also even while experiencing duality you are still non-dual [Music] where all the modifications of the mind are suppressed and so the consciousness remains as a witness of the suppressed mind or the controlled mind and that is helpful in the yoga system for generating what is called viveka kathy the knowledge that i am separate from nature look everything is stopped i do not see a world i do not see the body i do not even see the mind i do not even see the intellect i do not even think and it's clear that i exist now that clarity as an experience not just thinking about it that comes to assam pragyat samadhi that is the yogic path that's not what advaita is talking about advaita says instead of going through that exercise right here sitting here looking at your screen and the world around experiencing the body can you see yourself as the non-dual reality which is the only thing which is there here actually not by changing experiences bhakti is the path of belief faith god will help us through yoga is the path of new experiences mystical experiences extraordinary experiences advaita is the path of knowledge taking up ordinary experiences not extraordinary yogic experience not the faith of bhakti rather an investigation into your experience here and now revealing the truth if advaita is the truth if non-dual brahman is the truth it must be here right now it must be here right now okay we have got really one run out of time but there's something i must tell you i was avoiding it so i'll just um tell this to you and then we'll stop so a tibetan buddhist teacher who i've been in dialogue with on and off so he wrote to me recently he gave some core teachings of um you know it's called rigpa the final awakening practices in tibetan buddhism and he said can i substitute brahman for buddha nature here so the last line the last line was that um what is let me just read out from his email um his email was yes one second he said can we substitute brahman for buddha nature in the last paragraph the last paragraph was listen to this this is from a tibetan buddhist perspective what is consciousness consciousness is buddha nature what is buddha nature colors forms shapes sounds flavors orders sensations emotions thoughts and self-identities so can we say that this is brahman and i wrote back to him i will modify it slightly what is consciousness consciousness is brahman correct what is brahman i said that which is experienced as colors forms shapes sounds etc what he had said was what is buddha nature colors forms shapes sounds uh so on what i said was that which is experienced as colors forms shapes sounds flavors etc is brahman brahman in itself is not colors sounds and shapes and forms okay now then i thought more deeply about it both the tibetan path and the advaithic path are upayas and methods pointing to a realization now there are advantages of the tibetan buddhist path and there are advantages and disadvantages of the advaithic path what is the disadvantage of that buddhistic path from an advertising perspective why is it why did i hesitate to say buddha nature is colors flavors and all because the moment you say this is buddha nature this is it what you're hearing smelling tasting touching your samsara you know love hate sorrows old age kovet dying all of that is this is buddha that's it the immediate reaction will be what then why even call it buddha nature this is samsara this is life this is suffering and you know dying and misery then what is the point of it all so that could be a mistake that could be the problem from that uh from that approach the advaita approach has the advantage of telling you that this is an appearance investigate this color sounds shapes thoughts and feelings you will find brahman the consciousness as such so this is a the instinctive reaction of an advaithic student now what is the advantage of the buddhist approach and the disadvantage of the advaithic approach the disadvantage struck me i was just walking in the park and suddenly struck me the disadvantage is this the moment you say that brahman is that which is experienced as this which is being experienced as samsara you have created a slight gap between appearance and reality and that's useful when we are ignorant but it becomes an obstacle when you are on the verge of enlightenment because you are probing your experience to find brahman but when you make the breakthrough this is an important insight when you make the breakthrough it is actually true literally true colors flavors sounds smell dust touch thoughts emotions ideas um waking dreaming deep sleep this is brahman once you make the breakthrough it is like saying so the necklace and the bangle and the ring that's gold and if you want to say that no no no gold is that which is being you are seeing as necklace bengal and that is the reality of those things that's good to point out gold once you have known what is gold for you you know what is gold so when you see a necklace do you not see gold exactly do you have to make any further analysis no it is gold only similarly for the enlightened person literally there's nothing further to be done no need to further say that brahman is that which is being experienced as this this is brahman sarvam khal bidam brahma it has to be treated with care all right thank you so much we'll deal with the rest in the next class namaste [Music] you