Video 64

65. Mandukya Upanishad | Chapter 4 Karika 74-78

it's in the fourth chapter of the mandukya karika has been giving us his take on advaita vedanta in his own approach his approach is basically to show advaitha through a critique of causality um he has told us that though it is the truth is that turiya is the only reality existence consciousness plays and everything else is an appearance of that and there is no causal link between the reality and the appearance he has told us that but as we saw in the last class he does make thank god some allowance for poor humanity right the transactional truth or maharika so within the realm of our day-to-day lives certainly you can take it as a provisional or a transactional truth and you can behave accordingly so for example if you're thirsty in a dream and what you later see to be a dream so the water available in the dream will quench your thirst in the dream similarly if you're hungry in this waking world the food available in this waking world will satisfy your your hunger and all the relationships in this world maintaining the body your health your finances you're taking care of people around you your job all of those have a certain provisional truth transactional truth and gurda pada agrees to that he says you should one should should according uh act according to the transactional truth in fact he puts it more philosophically what about the conclusions of the other philosophers and he says samvriti satyam he uses the buddhistic term samriti satya the transactional or the lower or the relative truth uh all the other philosophies their conclusions are also acceptable at the transactional level at the vehicle at the transactional truth level um just a note here last time in the last class somebody said it is just like sri ramakrishna's vikyana vedanta there's a big difference the difference is this from gaurapada's view which is a very radical non-dualistic view all the other practices let's i mean religious practices it could be devotion it could be good works it could be meditation all of them are accepted provisionally they are accepted at a transactional or empirical level viva harika and they have a certain utility they prepare the mind for the higher uh and the ultimate truth but god apartheid in that that way is consistent and inflexible also ultimately the ultimate truth is the way it is said in the manduka karika there is one consciousness of which everything else is an appearance whatever else you may do your devotion your good works your whatever you do all worldly and religious practices they are all at the most transactional truth lower truth relative truth uh empirical truth not the ultimate truth and the ultimate truth is one and only one that is the non-dual turia um so while that may be fine for a gyani most of you are gyanis so from your perspective that's fine you want to realize i am the turia i am brahman and we are happy giving devotion uh rituals meditation a lower place in the in the ladder and lower rung in the ladder but that does it's not of much comfort or inspiration to a person and suppose there is a person who is devotional by nature who loves to adore god faith deep faith in god and finds this philosophy interesting but not particularly inspiring and not particularly uh that that person doesn't want to follow this path now for this person god is inflexible he says that maybe might be all right from a lower perspective and there is a world there is god and there is you but remember god world and you are all at the level of waking reality at the most dream reality waking dream and deep sleep are all appearances and the reality is beyond all of these it is the non-dual non-causal turia there is an inflexible which is of not much help to a person who is say basically devotional by nature or basically meditative by nature whereas sri ramakrishna's approach is different here is the difference sriram krishna fully would fully accept god upon this perspective but would say it's a perspective there are many ways of being spiritual and attaining spiritual realization so if a devotee of for example you say i love my krishna or my rama is that all right gorda pada would say well all right but do come to class i will tell you about turiya so the sooner you get out of the rama and krishna business the better for you it will help you it's not bad it's not the best i'll give you something much better and if you say what you are saying does not appeal to me i don't understand it or even if i understand it it's not particularly it's not my thing then god father will say so much the worse for you you keep trying you have maybe you'll be better off next life transactionally speaking of course ultimately there is no next life whereas sri ramakrishna if somebody like that goes to sriram krishna says i love krishna or kali or rama is that all right he would say of course it is all right of course it is all right and he would only add that don't think that is the only way there there are many ways and they all lead to the same reality anyway so that's just a note on what we are discussing gora padas advaitic perspective with which i fully agree and i like it very much i know most of us here like it that's why we are studying here that is not exactly the same as sri ramakrishna's vikyana vedanta approach the vikyana vedanta approach is much broader it will include godupatha's approach but um it is not limited to that anyway that is my take on it now let us go to the 74th verse 74th verse so this process of giving us the teachings of advaita is now coming to a grand conclusion with the 74th verse it's a stunning verse um and then we'll move on to a different subject but the 74th verse he makes some very dramatic moves the question here is suppose somebody asks you all right so you have divided everything into paramatica the absolute truth and devaharika tell me your gowda pada you are turya mandukya so this whole turiya waking dreaming deep sleep and the pure consciousness non-duality all of this is this paramatic or viva harika it's a interesting question if you want to trap god upadha all this which you are talking about this is paramatic or viva harika and pada faces the challenge squarely he will say even turiya and all what i have been talking about is veva harika and this all these concepts should be abandoned but what it means you have to be very careful at this point otherwise there will be a disaster all that we have done till now will fall apart let's see what he says and then i'll dwell on it what does he say 74 aja kalpata s [Music] very dramatic move he says translation since in accordance with the conclusion arrived at in the scriptures of other schools the soul undergoes birth from the empirical point of view therefore in pursuance of that fancy and empirical view it is said by the non-dualists that the soul is worthless but from the standpoint of the absolute reality it is not even birthless what is he saying here paramarthana the ultimate truth even that non-origination his beloved theory of non-origination god upon the theory which has been established working so hard to establish in the second chapter and the third chapter ajata vada here he seems to abandon abandon that also he says from the absolute standpoint paramarthana not piazza ayatawada also does not stand there what does he mean he says this is an entire structure which has been set up in the realm of samaritan which is another word for or more common terms relative truth in the world of relative truth we have set up this system you are asked to look at this is your waking world this is your dream work this is your deep sleep world once you have understood this this has been pointed out with respect to that we are pointing out something called the absolute reality uh turiya and visturiya which is the witness consciousness of all three states in which all three states appear and disappear and that turia is actually non-dual they are not four different states it's that one turia which appears as waking dreaming deep sleep not only that that turiya is the truth and the waking dreaming deep sleeper appearances therefore waking dreaming deep sleep can be called viva harika satyam transactional rarity and the turiya is the paramatic satyam he said it again and again turia is paramount except absolute truth this is what we have been told and we have been made to understand now he is telling us let it go even this difference making the difference into viva harika satyam and paramartika satyami actually made three three levels of differences pratibhasika which is the level of appearance dream error mirage prativasika appearance a transactional our waking world which we consider to be very real this world and the absolute which vedanta is teaching us which is thuriya so even this distinction he says this distinction including the what we are talking about as the absolute this distinction too is being made obviously in the viva hari karel in our day to day here we are in the waking state you are the waker we are all wakers vishwa and in our jagrat prapancha the waking universe here in this waking universe we are studying vedanta and trying to realize our true nature for that purpose this structure has been set up prativasika the level of appearance this transactional level where we are sitting and now and then um the absolute turia which is our real nature all of this has been set up so that we move from what is the point of it we move from this identification with this particular body and mind thinking that we are the waker this is the truth that's it no to push us from this into an appreciation of the reality this structure has been made once you appreciate the reality once you appreciate the reality don't hold on to the structure don't hold on to the structure i am reminded of nagarjuna again so this uh approach is actually very nagarjunian about 500 600 years before gowdapadha nagarjuna wrote he's a buddhist so nagarjuna wrote it's in that he says buddha has taught two truths satyam parama tikam satyam the absolute truth and the um transactional truth sambriti sabrita literally means covering up so the truth which covers up so if there is an absolute truth and there is a lower truth why not go straight to the absolute truth why bother with this assembly to satyam then arjuna explains the lower truth the transactional truth without taking help of that paramartham the ultimate reality nobody will understand nadine so we have to take refuge in the lower truth in the relative truth in the transactional truth in buddhism what is the transactional truth um the four noble truths then the idea of this nirvana the buddha the uh of shunyata uh of um this you know dependent origination all of these are ah part of the all of them including buddha and nirvana and all of that they are all samrithi satyam for for nagarjuna they are the lower truth ultimate truth is that which is attained by following this path in our way what we are studying what is the samrity satyam or bevahari kasatyam where you are pointed out it is pointed out there is waking dreaming deep sleep which we experience and then by investigation of that we arrive at the heart of this reality which is called turia once you achieve this once you realize it once we have an intuition of the reality which is called turia it is time to let go of the concepts it's time to let go of the concept it's like after the building has been completed you have to open the scaffolding otherwise there may be a tendency to hold on to the scaffolding so nagarjuna explains he says emptiness so what is emptiness emptiness is not nothingness emptiness and nothing are different nagarjuna says the principle of the truth which is beyond the four koti's or four alternatives what are the fault alternatives is it does it exist he says no so it does not exist shouldn't you say no so it both exists and does not exist he says no so it neither exists nor does not exist he says no what is that you cannot use language for that but that shunyata also that shunyata also nagarjuna says is a method of dissolving all your preconceptions your conceptualization and taking you to a reality which is there but we will not say it is there he will not positively say it then he says there are those in fact he at one point he just mentions that people mis do us an injustice by thinking means nothing we don't say shunyam is nothing another place he says important point that those who hold on to shunyata as a truth those who hold on to lower truths for them shunyata can help them to dissolve that misconception but those who now hold on to shunyata is another type of truth for them there is no help and he gives an example yatha like a snake if you catch it on the wrong end terribly dangerous so he says like that so that is nagarjuna governor father here does something like that why is he doing this he said why have we done all of this then in the verse he says second line para tantra abhinishpatya sambrithya jayathi tusa because common sense idea is that we are bored and we die and paratantra the philosophers all other philosophers the dualistic philosophers they say that we are born and die not only once but many times you there is a consciousness and the atman and then the jivatman which is under the spell of karma and it gets newer bodies after life after life we are living this is the story we have been told multiple lives body dies but the subtle body goes on to the next body next life and so we evolve spiritually we get so many experiences we perform karma good and bad and we get the results of that and this is causality this is what what ah gowda pada has been attacking all throughout since because of this in order to de-hypnotize us from this kind of hypnotization i am we did this whole ah jagrat swapna sushupti waking dreaming deep sleep analysis to reveal the tudia which is non-causal non-causal beyond causality the turia is not a cause nor an effect certainly not an effect it's not a cause being near limit of its beyond causality if it's beyond causality is beyond time beyond time lithium eternal having established that that it is timeless and changeless and pure consciousness and the only reality and non-dual having established that if you have got an intuition of that now let go of these terms if it is um you see what he is saying here is when you say brahman is eternal you're still accepting time nityam you get the sense of something which is throughout time as time goes on always there somebody put it never not here so always present that is eternal but is always present and eternal you are already accepting time when you say all pervading brahman is all pervading but you're already accepting space and when you say brahman is non-dual there is nothing none of the things that we observe this multiplicity of the universe not one thing is separate from brahman not one thing is the second reality apart from brahman so you are accepting all these things you are accepting deisha kaala vastu space time and object then only you are characterizing brahman as eternal all-pervading non-dual but once you have realized that space time and object are appearances they have no reality then you need not say eternal all-pervading um the nature of reality is beyond that don't make the mistake here that is the danger of saying things like that don't make the mistake oh so brahman is not eternal i thought so brahman is also like us it will also die no no no no we have all that we have gone beyond all those things that reality which you have intuited as the turia which you have a feel for that reality is never born never dies now let go of the word nithyan eternal that does not make it anithium non-eternal it is just not the terms of time are no longer relevant to it every object is limited in space every object that we know in our day-to-day uh transactions is limited in space you are in um somebody is in i think kollam baba is in dallas ah and somebody is in new jersey somebody is in california india we are limited in space if you are in delhi you are not in new york if you are in new york you are not in dallas we are limited in space every object that we know every person we know is limited in space in order to overcome this limitation we are showing that turia is not like that thoria pervades all of space but having realized that when we let go of the concept of space you need not anymore say that it pervades all of space similarly time you need not any more say eternal every object that we know is limited in time let go of that concept when you realize that theory is eternal now let go of the term eternal also let go of the term non-dual also existence consciousness bliss so existence to show that turiya is not um a thing which exists it is rather existence itself and also to rule out the option that there is no such thing as story it's a fiction no no it is there so you have to bring in the concept of existence but once you know that now you no longer you need not call it sat archit or ananda also toriya is not a thing which exists it is existence itself but not a thing which exists it is not a particular cognition not a particular knowledge so chit is not in the sense of a particular knowledge it is also not a particular joy a particular pleasure lots of happiness that story no no no but all of these existence knowledge and happiness they have no no existence apart from turia so that's what we learned so from that perspective it was called satchit ananda you see advaita uses language in a peculiar way because what advaita is pointing towards cannot be fully expressed by by words it is using language to point towards something but after the pointing is done and if you have got an idea of what is being pointed at you can let go of it the idea of the chinese you know the finger pointing at the moon some you point out the moon finger pointing at the moon we have a better actual example the arundhatinyaya where the tiny star arundhati is supposed to be pointed out and you start with look at that branch and then look at the star above that branch and look at the star next to it and finally the tiny star which is otherwise would be completely missed you can point out now all of these once the person is understood which is the arundhati star the faint flickering star then you can let go of the others then the branch and the other stars and other celestial bodies are not important anymore similarly once you have a feel for what is being said here you are that ethereum once that is clear at least clarity has done it is time to let go of the concepts you but not to take on the opposite concepts again so this is the idea so often it may seem contradictory you get the feeling but god up you said these things earlier now you are reversing it turiya is the paramatic absolute and world jiva jagatish for a world sentient beings and god these are transactional vemma harika now you are saying turia also he is not saying turiya is veva harika he is saying there is a ultimate reality but we will not call it ultimate or babarika anymore these these terms we will remove it when the transactional reality does not exist itself why call the ultimate reality ultimate ultimate with respect to what that's what he wants to say so this is it can leave you breathless um stratospheric heights so i mean they can't say is that these philosophers in ancient india would take you to heights where the human the human lung scares can breathe he says it is so stunning the dizzying the levels at which he is talking it may seem to be abstract but at every moment he is talking about a most concrete reality which is your own reality um so i mentioned this many times when swami vivekananda did something like that mary hale his correspondence with mary hale mary hill writes a poem to swim vivekananda saying that i understand what you have taught you have taught that all is god and swami vivekananda wrote back another poem saying that i never taught such queer doctrine that all is god but mary hill would you know she felt but you said it no what i meant was that god only is and all is not god only is and all is not guarded here is doing something like that having said all those things to cure us of wrong conceptions now he's dropping these conceptions also um yeah i'm reminded of wittgenstein's you know there's a very nice reminiscence about the extraordinary philosopher wittgenstein um one student who later became a famous philosopher himself in cambridge in those days would attend wittgenstein's classes and they were extraordinary classes i mean in his classes philosophy was actually being done so what he taught in those classes those notes later became the foundation of lot of philosophy which has come out of cambridge and oxford later on in years after that and even now it comes from there now one one of those people attending the classes felt that wittgenstein was contradicting himself he's saying something and the next class he's just saying the opposite thing and so he decided i will catch him and he wrote down exactly what wittgenstein has said and the next class as it is as it happened wittgenstein said just the opposite thing and the student said professor yesterday you said just the opposite today you're contradicting yourself he said no i didn't and then the student said no you did i have written it down here these are your exact words then wittgenstein said ah but you do not mean by those words what i mean by them see the words is the same but i mean something which you are not understanding so when i change it i'm still talking about the same thing but you think i'm contradicting myself i mean these are my explanation he only said ah but you don't mean the same thing by that word which i do okay that can be a problem now the topic will change so before that let us quickly take a look at the ah questions jen jayant yes yes i'm a latecomer to this class so i don't know what happened in the earlier chapters but it seems that it's if only touria is then how can we possibly do spiritual practice suddenly you know it's unreal you know does goropod actually lay out like uh shankara does for qualifications which are prerequisites before one really can even sit to learn this knowledge yes it's just purely intellectual no we can and in fact the next the switching subject will be from from this verse next verse onwards he will take up this practical question so uh he will talk about it and then what about sadhana what are we to do why is this going on what we are in if all is hunky dory and thuri everything is turia then uh then what's going on here what's wrong with with us and with the samsara and all this suffering how do we get out of it but the answer is straightforward all sadhana he will say is transactional truth we have a harika a lower level of truth relative level of truth the absolute truth is only thorium and he's not saying anything extraordinary there remember spiritual practice whether it is prayer or meditation or philosophical inquiry is also is practice sadhana means it's a practice meant for getting something any kind of practice is meant for achieving or getting something so that is definitely at the level of imperfection think about it even in a dualistic sense does god need to do spiritual practice no would one doing spiritual practice at one point hope to become perfect yes so would one ultimately go beyond spiritual practice even the paths which stress spiritual practice to the hilt they also say ultimately there is a level of perfection where you transcend the need for these things goura path is talking from that perspective let's put it this way god apart is giving you a god's eye view of it i mean in a general term i mean he goes beyond the concept of god also yeah it's like we have to do something unreal to gain the real yes we have to uh or let me put it even more precisely we have to do something unreal to get rid of the unreal the rail is always there you don't have to gain the real yeah the whole idea that we are not uh we have we have not got the real there is something uh my real nature is beyond all of this that i have to have to get it um this thing has to be overcome guru pada is saying that you are already the tyria and he is all sadhana spiritual practice including this vedanta is to bring us to an understanding and clarity about it what is the role of spiritual practice even shankara will say that in the brahma-sutra the role of spiritual practice is to get rid is not to become get moksha it's to get rid of the error that we are not mukta that we are not free it's to get rid of the not to become brahmana spiritual practice cannot make you brahman cannot make euthyria it is to get rid of the error that we are not studying right so spiritual practice in fact this is the verse actually this verse actually can be interpreted in that way all spiritual practice including vedanta mandukya and turiya all of this is at the level of transactional level the verbal level where there are certain goals to be achieved and certain practices to be done so this is at the level of spiritual practice spiritual practice just erases the error that you are not studying this is from an advaithic perspective leaving you as thuria yeah these are real things are precious unreal as they are but they're precious they are precious only because you will see um of god behind them of turiya behind them if the most precious thing moment you realize it's a movie it becomes a nice as an aesthetic experience but the thing itself is not precious anymore because you know it never did exist yeah things are precious in the world we chase them or we are afraid of them we cherish them because we have invested reality in them swami vivekananda says things are dead in themselves we breathe life into them then we run after them or we run away from them swamiji says so this is uh gowda pardo's approach giant uh [Applause] [Music] it looks different from god or father's approach just like ramakrishna's approach is also different and personally which path do you prefer for us as seekers they are not two different paths see when you realize when you take the snake rope example you either reject the snake or you accept the rope both are the same thing when you say it's not a snake it's a rope you have rejected the snake and accepted the rope it's not a world it's not individual living beings it is one radiant infinite existence consciousness place so when you say um i the world entire world is presented to you to you the consciousness what is presented all these people all these objects activities and your own body your own personality all of it is presented together to you the consciousness now you can say all of this is i the consciousness it's it's my radiance it's i'm shining forces all of this and this is nothing but me me means consciousness or you can say none of this exists only id consciousness exist contrast this with what we are now doing the entire world is presented to you the consciousness but what do what do i say when the entire world appears what do i say i say that this much up to the skin and whatever is inside is i this these thoughts these feelings this is me and everything else is separate from me some of these things i like and i want some of these things that dislike i must avoid and many of these things i'm neutral about but they are not me now look at the illogicality of it the whole thing is a presentation to consciousness the whole thing is a presentation to consciousness why make this division this is the reason why we make the division of course but logically speaking they are making a strange division this body is me and everything else is not me so it's not two different parts um yes yes so it's not two different paths it's the same way this is the same advaitic path there are two different aspects of it yeah one thing is when you are engaged in the world it might be a good to have this attitude it is all my radiance i am brahmana all of this is brahman i brahman shining food everything here i am one with everything or everything is one with me when i plunge into meditation i dismiss the entire world and if as far as possible dismiss the body also and stay with awareness as such advaithic meditation with eyes open same brahman but as this entire universe with eyes closed dismiss brahman but you're doing the same thing one you are seeing the snake as the rope here is brahman and the other i'm dismissing the snake that it's it's not real i was going to ask a question on on verse 66 but but in the wake of uh verse 74 it seems almost irrelevant to sort of probe the complexities of the empirical world but but still let me let me ask this in in verse 66 god a father uses subjective idealism in saying that the waking world is the product of the waking mind so while i realize that both the waking world and the waking mind their appearance and pure consciousness it sort of appears that the waking mind is interposed between brahman and objects some sort of intermediary is is the waking world sort of a second order effect you're right uh from gaudra prada's perspective so gaurav padha he takes a subjective idealist position but that is using buddhistic terms from advaitha from an advertising perspective he is doing what is called drishti srishtivada that means a world exists only in your experiencing a good example is the dream world so the objects in the dream world have no existence apart from the dreaming mind this does not require philosophy that's the common sense view what he's doing is he's using that um paradigm for the waking world also which is why gaurav pada's approach to advaita is a little difficult um somebody punanji asked earlier shankara's approach and governopath's approach it is interesting uh take these three terms srishti drishtivada drishti shrishtivada ajatavadha srishti rishtivada don't be um you know bamboozled by the terms they are very simple actually literally what do they mean srishti shrivada means world is created then you experience it the philosophy based on that that is that's that is material materialism science all of these are compatible realism they're all compatible with this especially it's a very common sense approach and the second one is drishti shrivada that you see it and therefore it exists a good way of understanding this is the dream example if you did not see the people and the things in the dream they would not exist and when you are not seeing it they don't exist when you see it at that time they seem to exist dependent on your seeing so drishti is seeing drishti shriva you are seeing itself is the creation of those things and then ajayatavadha where they do not exist only you the reality exists they have absolutely no exist in this world so these are three ways of looking at the world experience now advaita here is the thing one swami explained to me advaitha can be understood in three ways they can be explained in three let us say prakrias or methodologies one methodology is that the methodology of srishti rishtivada and shankara takes up that methodology that why do you take up that methodology because um that is the one which is common sensical most acceptable to people see the whole of advaita is just a technique of pointing you to a truth don't take the philosophy itself the concepts itself they are not meant as a description of the truth because from advaithic perspective the only truth is brahman the rest is appearance therefore a philosophy also must be part of the appearance and therefore the philosophy itself should not be taken too seriously i am again reminded of wittgenstein that philosophy is meant to be therapeutic not an actual description of of reality so if philosophy is meant to be therapeutic then the therapy which applies to us should be used which we can accept it is very difficult if you say from the very beginning that there is no difference between waking and dream we do make a clear difference between baking and dream so if you want to teach us advaita you have to start at my level make a clear difference between waking and dream and that is srishti rishtivada that shankara does that gowdapadha starts up with drishti srishtivada and goes to ajatavadha that's where godupath is difficult gaurupada starts off by by erasing the difference between waking and dreaming for him waking and dreaming both are dreams in fact in the kakarikas he says there are godupatha says there are only two states not even three states why are you saying three states there are only two states what are the two steps not waking dreaming and deep sleep there is dreaming and deep sleep what is dreaming waking is also dreaming dreaming is also dreaming what do you mean by dreaming appearances in consciousness that's dreaming what is sleeping no appearance is in consciousness that's sleeping and the reality is consciousness so this is god of others and that's where god father begins and he ends up with ajata where nothing whatsoever is produced nothing whatsoever is there apart from consciousness itself um one swami is a very well known teacher of advaita in chennai swami paramarthanandaji so he told me that srishti shrivada shankara's approach is based on the waking state if you take the waking state as your paradigm there is a world and with the sense organs we contact an external world taking that as your paradigm if you try to understand advaita that is the shrivada shankara's approach primarily godhapath's approach he says is based on the dream paradigm and the deep sleep paradigm he said you if you take the dream paradigm advaita becomes if you take the deep sleep paradigm advaita becomes ajayatawadha and all of them are just methods don't take those things that's what godopath is doing in this verse 74. don't take all of those ultimately ultimately what is there is not to be defined by these terms these are all scaffolding ladders to help you to realize it yeah ok thank you yep so this is one thing you should all take away from this very interesting insight advaita can be take have three paradigms waking paradigm dream paradigm deep sleep paradigm paradigm means model you can understand advaita from the waking paradigm you can understand advaita from the dream paradigm you can understand advaita from deep sleep paradigm but each is successively more difficult for whom the sadhus in uttarakhand say that for beginners so this is the highest advaita and they're all those who are beginners for them the makings paradigm is best because that's what seems real to them they can they should make a beginning there so what kind what does advaita look like there most of the upanishads take that approach there is brahman from brahman space was produced and air and fire and water and earth and from that worlds were created bodies were created jivatmas and then we have to follow the process um you know panchakosha or drink rishi or whatever and realize that we are that one consciousness by tuttwamasi and so on that is the waking paradigm but advaita can be understood as the dream paradigm also that there is no external world apart from the mind of the experiencer and advaitha can be understood from the deep sleep paradigm also even mind is dispensed with there brahman and only brahman yeah so it's clear to me you know you said you mentioned that this was a lot of people think it's a buddhistic text which seems i mean it looks like that to me would you explain a little bit like the other side to it why it's claimed because of the dante test text as well can you and i won't go into that if you are interested um so i mean nikhila nandaji in his translation of the manduka karika an introduction he goes into the details of why some scholars think it is buddhistic and why that is not right but just off the cuff it's a commentary on the mandu upanishad why would any buddhist comment on the open issue the upanishads are not the texts of this they are clearly hindu texts they're part of the vedas and the conclusions which god power reaches are very advaitic non-dualistic in fact they are the foundation of advaita vedanta so and there are other reasons also for example the final verse of the um of this chapter the final verse or almost the last the last verse in fact of mandukya godupath will say all this was not taught by the buddha there immediately one might ask so why is he saying this which means there is a lot of similarity with what what is taught by the buddhists so just a note here um is a good place to say it my feeling always has been on this is this that the traditional view that the vedantists have about the buddhists is especially all right let me put it this way when you want to see whether advaita vedanta and buddhism are similar or the or same in some respects you have to compare it with one kind of buddhism because buddhist philosophy is vast it spreads over nearly um is over twelve hundred thirteen hundred years in india plus several hundred years again in tibet and china and also more than two thousand five hundred years of development it's vast many many schools the school with which are the schools with which advaita vedanta most similar is nagarjuna the school the emptiness the emptiness people and the mind only people vignawada so these two schools tibetan buddhism philo tibetan buddhist philosophy is a synthesis of these two schools emptiness school mind only school yoga chara vignavada with madhyama kasunawada and advaita vedanta is if you want to compare it all it should be compared with this because other buddhist schools are clearly different from advaita vedanta now if you want to compare nagarjuna's madhyamaka with advaita vedanta it's a very complicated and hotly debated topic for a long time now there are many many views i personally think i'll just give you my take on it i personally think the advaitic view of naga arjuna's madhyama kasunavada the traditional view of advaitans is is misplaced advaith traditional advaitans have dismissed nagarjuna's has nothing they say nothing that's nihilism but that is unfair if you look at nagarjuna's own texts and chandrakeet these texts they clearly say that we are not nihilists [Music] on the other hand i also think that the traditional buddhist especially today if you take the tibetan buddhist approach to advaita that's also misplaced i also feel because they think advaita is talking about a thing a substance there is something called brahman they are talking about an eternal thing exactly what god apathy says it's not that so it comes from a you know like a simplistic reading of the opponent so both sides have dismissed each other the buddhist dismiss advaitan says they say talking about some belief in some kind of a god-like thing called brahman no that doesn't that's not real and they have logic to cut that down and advaitans we have in the centuries from shankara onwards um we have dismissed nagarjuna sunnyva the madhyamaka buddhism as nothingness they're just saying nothing exists but that's oversimplifying all right so what do i think in common with swami vivekananda and some other modern uh scholars including uh swami saradhan and also swami sadhana says what we call purnam they call shundim same thing what we call the fullness they call the void i happen to agree with that uh that what gaura powder is pointing towards and what nagarjuna is pointing towards is more or less the same principle the approach may be different now i studied this quite intensively at harvard with professor garfield so we studied nagarjuna we studied indian commentators like chandra kitty and then we studied a host of tibetan philosophers which i had not studied earlier so meepham and songkhapa and mabja so these are tibetan philosophers who commented upon nagarjuna in tibetan and so those books have been translated so we went to an intensive study of that pretty difficult i'll tell you some time about it but it was very interesting um nagarjuna's writing 2000 years ago and his commentator is writing in sanskrit chandra kitty about 1800 or 1700 years ago 1600 years ago and the first tibetan commentators are writing in tibetan a thousand years ago and the later commentators writing 500 years ago in tibet in in tibetan and all of that these million year old texts translated into almost incomprehensible english and hundreds of pages of that so you have to go through that now what what difference did it make to my opinion i still think what nagarjuna and chandra kitty were pointing towards gaurapada is also pointing towards that but after all this study i have come to the conclusion that the paths are very different i i am now i am beginning to appreciate how different the madhyamaka shunyavadha path is during nagarjuna's time and later on as it is embodied now for example uh in the tibetan galop tradition of dalai lama so that has it's a very unique and very different path i wouldn't say very different that's also a path of inquiry but the process of inquiry is different and the process we do here in advaita is different and clearly what godu pada is doing here is very different from chandra kitty or nagarjuna we're doing the pr the paths are very different i'll leave it at that okay yes yes yes i can hear you you're a voice without form yeah minus the question pertains to what you explained about sriram krishnas began vedanta and the role or place of worship of sagan brahman in in it and how god pada and nagarjuna's attitude and perspective might likely differ from it so i'm looking to understand uh by means of two things that i learned when i visited uh sri gauda padhacharya mutt in india which as we know uh is believed to be founded by godfather charity himself and the first pontiff was vivar and under saraswati who was the disciple of govinda pakistan so one thing i learned is they have a long parampara going you know back to hundreds of years of bhavani shankar worship this is one point and the second point is they have mentioned that ananda giriji in his commentary on the gowda park he writes that shri god father charger himself did penance add badrikashram and lord narayana revealed to him the characters uh to some extent or you know in the essence of the mandoc openation now if we uh you know where to add these nuances to what we were understanding about sriram krishna's vikyana vedanta i'm looking to see how it can possibly build up you know your feeling about his attitude towards worship of sargon abraham in this philosophy okay that's a lot um yes so i'll take up the last one first that here the vision of lord narayana in badrikashram who revealed the karikas to him that's right so in the karikas he you see at the very beginning of the fourth chapter he salutes the most excellent among the bipeds and scholars say look here he's saluting buddha but he's not saluting buddha he's saluting narayana who appeared to him in that form so this is one of the points that scholars point out that where it sometimes people think he's saluting buddha but he's actually talking about that particular vision of narayana where he got he was inspired to write these karikas so that's why gora padha would not dismiss for example devotion saguna brahman devotion meditation all of those things are fully accepted by godhapada just like all traditional advaitans after him as helpful important help for preparing the mind for purification of mind for concentration of mind without which this guyana will not come at all so it so that level is accepted but uh and as far as nagarjuna is concerned it's not at all accepted obviously he will not have any belief in narayana or any of these scriptures because he takes a purely logical dialectical approach a sort of negative dialectics ah question of a god narayan or anything else absolutely not accepted by nagarjuna but he's a buddhist but i was saying that srirama krishna not only fully accepts obviously does the devotion to saguna brahman but he will not make it a secondary or a base camp type of thing that you do this and finally you have to come to gowdapada's mandu kyo panishan then only you will get moksha the way gaurav radha puts it you get the faint impression that if you remain only with devotion to god suppose you don't come to the manduka thing at all if you don't remain only with devotion to god you have left something incomplete you have not achieved the highest that impression god or father will give you srinama krishna would say that you can achieve everything to devotion you can achieve everything to any one of the paths which can lead you to enlightenment of course through advaita that is certain certainly of course is there so that is the difference all right now let us go back to the text itself let me see all right now these questions actually will come up now from verse number 75 onwards from verse number 75 uh onwards a new topic is starting all of this is fine what you have said you have built up the whole structure of jagrat swapna sushupti waking dreaming deep sleep and the tudya which is beyond all of them oh i'm sorry to keep jumping back and forth this one thing i forgot to mention when you are abandoning all these terms you know nirguna brahman satya dananda and tudhi also just consider the term turiya you know what the term turia means it means fourth if you remember the first chapter we studied turiya means fourth one waker two dreamer three deep sleeper vishwa taija pragya fourth is the reality pure consciousness of thuria now if you are saying waker dreamer deep sleeper do not really exist they are all appearances 1 2 and 3 are not there then what does 4 mean you have to abandon the term 4 but that does not mean that turia does not exist this is the delicate balancing act you have to perform let go of the term theory but that denying that does not mean that turia does not exist turia is the only thing that exists but the term turia no longer applies that's what godupath is trying to say in the 74th verse all of these terms at one point you have to let them go now the question arises that fine we are tourium we are brahman fine but then why are we in trouble why is samsara going on we are satchidananda so why is salaam krsna says in bengali brahman falling in the network of the five elements pancha bhuta father means the network brahman is weeping as it were caught in the network of five elements that means embodied made in this body made of five elements brahman itself starts weeping now why what is the problem and how do we get out of it so this is the practical side of it all or at least as practical as godopath is going to get don't expect godot father will teach you how to sit in padmasana and how to do breathing like this and how to do puja no he will explain this is the highest truth why are we in trouble now and how to get out of this trouble and realize the highest truth that's it so that's the topic which is starting now 75. translation there is an evidence a mere craving for false objects no no no duality is in existence there realizing the non-existence of duality one becomes free from craving for false things and one does not undergo birth so what is the source of our problems that which does not exist that which is not real and yet it appears and then we have abhinives avi nevaesha means ah we we are immersed in it we become obsessed with it and we lend reality to it and then we start interacting with it this big this becomes samsara that what is this thing which appears to us duality a non-existent duality appearing to us like the snake non-existent there appearing like the water in the mirage non-existent appearing like the blue color in the sky non-existent appearing and then we get immersed in it it becomes very real to us what happens world appears before us a body appears before us and thoughts in the mind appear before us before us means i am talking from consciousness perspective then we forget that we are consciousness we start thinking we are this body and mind what do we call ourselves vishwa waker we don't call baker even if he called it some help would be there no swami sarva priyanda and here is the waking world this is the real world and now i'm immersed in it all the joys i must chase them and get them all the troubles i must solve them somehow all the sufferings i may i must say whoa is me how will i get out of this suffering immersed in this non-real problem samsara ensues for us so remember the example of the princess of kashi i have told this story a number of times earlier the theatrical performance was there in an ancient king's court and one of the characters in the performance was supposed to be the princess of karshi who was a little girl in the play and they couldn't find up somebody to play it and they got the prince of that kingdom who was little boy at that time the queen said dress him up as a little girl as a princess and he can play the role of princess of kashi that was done the role was performed so well you know the story the queen asked a painter paint the picture of my son the prince in the dress of that princess of kashi so the painting was made and they signed princess of kashi painted and did so and so and all of that many years passed 20 years have passed now the prince has grown up he's a young man and one day while exploring the palace he comes across this picture princess of kashi and he sees old picture when he looks at the date oh at that time she was little and now she must be my age and he falls in love with her and he says this princess of kashi i must marry she must become my queen otherwise i'll be unhappy in this life see now he's unhappy and he wants what he wants imagine is there is no princess of kashi apart from him at all but he wants that he is unhappy about it and his parents father and mother is too shy to tell them they are worried what has happened to the son and finally you know the story the wise minister asks prince what is wrong oh i am in love oh wonderful who is she that's very good oh she's a princess oh princess that's all even better um she's the princess of kashi oh wonderful wonderful where did you meet i haven't met i have seen a picture in our basement then the minister says picture in the basement oh let take me there so they go there and he shows that old painting the minister remembers everything he says to the prince prince you need to sit down sit down i've got some information for you something this is not the princess of kashi whoever it is i will marry this is not not uh whoever it is not you know that a story is this that is a theatrical performance and you played the role of princess of kashi and the painting was made that thou are tattoo masi your prince you are that and the problem of the prince was solved immediately how was it solved by realizing the unreality of the princess of kashi and that unreality means what it does not exist apart from me in one sense i have got the princess of kashi always because it is i it was never apart from me when i wanted it at that time also it was not not apart from me when i realized who it was that time also i know it is me only so that is the nature of the external world not realizing the nature of this external world what happens is he abhu tabi nivesho that which abuta which does not exist at all is become aveenovesa completely immersed in it dwayam tatrana the princess of kashi the sec is not a second reality apart from the prince realizing this realizing that he goes beyond samsara is not born this birth and death cycle stops so how will samsara stop by knowledge what knowledge i am the turia there is no waker and waking universe apart from me no dreamer and dream universe apart from me no deep sleep state apart from me the tudy alone exists and i am that when you realize that samsara will stop number 76 [Music] what propels this cycle of birth and death karma that karma is called heitu here when this haitu what is the what what are the different kinds of hitu he says uttama madhyama adhama uttamahetu is all the pious acts that we have performed good acts good karma rituals big poojas you have helped so many people and unselfishly lot of good karma that is uttama hetu and that leads to uttama janma and the next life you'll be born as a as a devata in heaven or in the world you will be born with you know good health and wealth and success everything will go wonderfully for you uttama and then madhyama is ah do you do good work and also mixed work in in this world try to be a decent person in this world may not be any extraordinarily good work you have done so kind of mixed karma if you do like most decent people in this world madhyama jamba you are reborn in this world of human beings again and then adama so pop immoral activity sinful activity when you harm others why do we do that chasing our own what we want see generally why do people do bad things for two reasons one is temptation another one is terror you see out of fear or temptation we try to we we overstep the limits of of morality and ethics and that kind of karma adhama hetu bad karma it leads to adhama janma that means very miserable human life or even animal life or existence in hell there are seven levels of hell also so this is the cycle of life which goes on now what is god perspective you realize this is an appearance by knowledge you realize this never was never is never will be he says what knowledge is that um so once you realize that these heteros these karmas they do not exist at all consciousness is ever free then consciousness will not appear to be born again and again as consciousness not as mind hit without the cause where will be the result without the existence of the karma karma itself does not exist all these things go to bother shown you realize karma itself does not exist what exists thuriya and i am that thoria realizing that this whole samsara which you are worried about you are complaining how will samsara come to an end like this only right then number 77 anime the birthless translation the birthlessness that consciousness attains when freed from causes is constant and absolute for all this duality and birth was perceptible to consciousness that has been worthless and non-dual even before what's going on here guardapad is very careful by listening to what he said we will get a doubt again so is gaurupada admitting karma he's admitting birth rebirth samsara and then the how to end samsara not at all godupath is saying don't mistake me i am not saying that there is really karma there is birth and you have to get out of the cycle of birth and rebirth no no i am consistently sticking to what i have always said he said you are always the consciousness so the question is so is moksha an event in time he said in the seventy sixth verse when there is he sees no karma tadana then the consciousness will not be born yada tada means time when and then so is godupath saying that there is actually karma there is birth there is bondage and then there will be liberation no in the 77th verse god upadha is not nothing new but he is making sure that we don't make a mistake consciousness is beyond causality no but no death no karma no good karma no bad karma no tama madhyama adama superior middling and inferior karma none of that is there for godhapada he says it appears to be so you must realize it does not actually exist and therefore the moksha that you get is the moksha that was already there it was just covered up by our ignorance when we become liberated what will be the feeling it will not be we get this wrong idea that it will be like oh i was in bondage till now now after lots of manduka classes i am liberated how nice no when we get that intuition the breakthrough we will realize i was never in bondage never was there karma for me never was there but then death for me never will there be karma or birth and death for me like a bad dream like a nightmare it appeared before me because of my ignorance ignorance of what that i am turya because of that it appeared before me but now i realize that it was never there at all that non-dual turiyah advaitathuri alone existed and it is there now it will be there samsara was never there is not there will not be there this will be the realization not samsara was there now i have come out of samsara not like that do the moksha which has the beginning will have an end isn't it anything that is the beginning will have an end so if moksha is beginning it will end if samsara actually existed and it came to an end who says it may start again who knows that kind of samsara and moksha godhapath is not talking about here this is that that's not true truth is today alone exists and that is what we realize animators does a consciousness beyond cause and effect anudpathi the birthlessness that we are never was born and when when is this so sama all the time past present and future non-dual ad non-dual there is no second reality apart from it at all aja the serva all the jivas are all of them are actually one thurya and they are all non they they do not originate at all they are not born i have told you this story um that about our sadhu who went to um advaitha teacher in uttarkashi was talking about puner punarjan haiyan is there rebirth or not and that sadhu that advaitin told out this swami that are mahatma gandha when there is no birth there is the question of rebirth please go and read manduk and our swami was annoyed so you cannot have a serious discussion with these banduka fellows they will immediately say no birth and death only turia only brahman and all of this it's all maya forget it um how do you say that simple direct and stunning how are you saying that birth and death is not there how are you saying samsara is not there how are you saying body is not there life suffering is not there how are you saying it mandu godhapath's answer is why are you saying that it is there so because i see it i experience it and god upon the answer is precisely because it is experienced therefore it is not there so what madness is this no drishyam yataha anything that is an object of consciousness anything that is an appearance in consciousness cannot be real jagat mithya dr this is the i use that jewish term why is the world real to us we will say the greatest proof of reality is because i see it here it smell it taste it touch it it gives me pleasure and pain that's why it's real and advaita says precisely because of that reason it is not real think about it if you see it then it is an appearance to you what proof all the logic we have done in second chapter like seeing a dream what proof is there of the existence of the seen object apart from the seer no proof at all it's an appearance in consciousness nothing apart from consciousness just as the dream africa and the dream lion and the dream tree and the dream body of the swami in that dream does not exist really what exists only the dreamer mind similarly here also only the consciousness in which all of this is appearing and disappearing that one alone exists in all of this he says in one stunning half half line chitta drisha because how can we make such a tremendous assertion because because it is experienced it is experienced by consciousness because it's experienced the objects of experience cannot be a reality apart from consciousness to understand this whole of second chapter is there white then let me before ending move on to seventy eight same thing he is saying again seventy eight [Music] so beautiful verse after realizing causelessness as the truth and not accepting any separate cause one attains the state of fearlessness that is free from sorrow and devoid of desire how do we get out of samsara what will happen so called happen when we realize we are tourium i'll end with this we realize buddha realization this is what is necessary not prayer not doing good works not meditation buddha all of those things will help but god is insistent on this thing you must realize know it and realize it that i am the story not just know it in the mandukya class thing i've heard all the manduka classes now i know it why i'm not getting out of suffering no can you honestly say i'm thoria internally to yourself if you can say you're already beyond suffering if you cannot say work it out where is it getting stuck at what point that is the beauty of advaitha at every point you can check with reality we will go all the way back to absolutely realistic materialistic terms here start with the body this one start here we will go step by step back again see where it is getting stuck where are you saying it has become not real it's still theoretical what point and we will show you you can you can try it yourself go back to waking state dream deep sleep think about those things understand what turia is you will see that the whole thing will dissolve before you at least hopefully so he says having realized having known this getting complete clarity about this what is this the thorium animate tatam beyond cause and effect beyond karma good karma bad karma middle karma none of them satyam it is truth this this this is the truth waking dreaming deep sleep appearances no karma is there and don't think that later on some kind of karma will come i've done some good works now the good karma will come i will go to heaven become like a devata shankaracharya says those things don't think all of this is an appearance and no further karma is there which will come suddenly and give you new birth and new experiences no prithag haitum no there's nothing see what he's saying here is sometimes people say like this well all of this is all right but it is true that i feel i am in bondage even if this bondage is unreal so this thing can come again if it was here right now then one day this may not be real bondage but the feeling of bondage can come again that's just as bad won't that happen i may forget that i am thorium again no such a possibility is impossible once you make the breakthrough result we the show come forever beyond sorrow forever beyond sorrow no sorrow can touch you anymore be the shocker what was that then what about the desire for worldly things i must achieve this get that visit that please eat that food akam all desire like the princes of kashi you realize there is no separate reality from me which can be desired so you overcome that you it immediately disappears akam and very important abhayam padam that reality padam here means the reality abhayam which is beyond fear the greatest problem in samsara is fear not even desire is fear anxiety fear this drive for security let philosopher wittgenstein again he said religion is the search for absolute security whether such a thing is there or not god can give but then you depend on god there is security in heaven maybe in this world the security in million dollars or in becoming powerful or having large families none of them will give you security only this realization of the absolute that i am the absolute theory was am will always be abhayam padam the state of fearlessness you have attained the state of fearlessness i should not even say you have attained you are the state of fearlessness you are just playing at being fearful you need not be fearful nothing in this world will scare you anymore nothing beyond this world will scare you anymore tota puri islam krishna's guru is sitting in dakshineshwar and meditating at night there is a big banyan tree and there is a demon a brahma daity who lives in the in the tree who comes down to scare tata puri trotapa is in meditation he opens his eyes a great advaitan looks at the demon he says ah you have come i am brahman you are also brahman come sit here and meditate the demon simply ran away from my god i've never seen what trouble is this he'll make me meditate and maybe even give me manduka class all right so this is the 77th 78th verse i think good let us quickly take one or two questions and comments giant and so one of the things that i related to personally which was also troubling to me i want to lay it out let me see if i can say it briefly here it was related to a question that somebody had asked of him about death of his mother and he had said something to the fact that she is dead because you think you are the individual so uh this longing for your mother is uh basically a longing for self-realization which is basically the death of the ego and that is your surrender to the mothers so she mainly returned and kind of comforted me and troubled me at the same time and i kind of struggled with that pointing that he had for someone maybe in 1930s but i related to it personally when my mother passed away and i kept thinking she's not there for me because i think i am this person and what he's trying to tell me that if i don't think i am who i am she won't even be dead for me in terms of my i don't know if i beautifully put your put it very beautifully let me go back to the first sentence you said and this last sentence you said i listened very carefully i have not read this earlier but what you said is it's absolutely true and we can understand it from the manduka perspective my mother is dead because i think of myself as an individual correct the moment i think i am the vehicle which we naturally think i am this waker visual then i am this body from this perspective that body that personality was my mother and when that body dies my mother is dead when this body will die i am dead so death becomes a reality and a problem to be solved because we think of ourselves as the waker as this person which we are not this is an appearance you see this whole thing my close relative died this whole thing could happen in a dream also and when we wake up it wouldn't be nothing everything would be perfectly all right similarly when we wake up from this dream of this godupath considers even the waking world to be a dream when we wake up from this dream and realize ourselves as the turiyah which is abhaya padam which is beyond fear we realize that what i consider to be a mother is not so it is consciousness itself turiya itself who and is one with me where is death then i am not the body the body is not even real so the staying of the body aging of the body and dying of the body these are interesting things which i am witness of because i am witness of it their appearances they have i exist when the body existed i exist when the body is dying and i exist when the body is dead what is it to me similarly my view of my mother will also completely change that particular body was not my mother this tourium which i am was my mother is my mother so all the people who are beloved to us father mother grandfather how many people through many lifetimes you they are actually not separate from you in reality in thorium you are all one reality you are forever united actually that's one beaut beautiful thing about advaita vidanta but remember those who consider enemy and dislike they are also forever united with you because you are all one consciousness yes very good from india individuality comes birth relationship and death and suffering but once you transcend individuality an individuality can still remain from this turiya perspective you can still live your life as puneeta and relate to your mother also knowing in your heart of fat hearts that you are one with her eternally not the thing to be believed it's a fact yes i can't hear you yeah swamiji the way i was understanding this was that having realized there is nothing left to be done and nothing not to be done both ways but the body is not dropped so till then what what is i mean do you just sort of flow with things is there something that yes swami this question question may come so everything has been accomplished isn't it going somebody said in a young american man won't it be boring that after you're enlightened what will you do swami vivekananda says on the contrary only such are fit to live in this world imagine living in this world where you feel one with everything but everything is your own radiance where you are not afraid of anything where you are not disturbed unhappy clinging you will be a joy your company will be a joy to everybody everybody will feel uplifted by your presence and you will enjoy the presence of everybody you will enjoy the presence of people and you will enjoy the absence of people i i'm remembering this in gangotri who said when people are there i said don't you feel lonely all these pilgrims when they go away in winter he says when all these people are not there i'm alone in the mountains and snow i'm even more happy you'll be able to say that with full honesty then only one can be fit to live in life and death you will be perfectly serene and happy and not at all bored it's the one thing you see about enlightened people saintly people you never see them bored they are always fulfilled and happy but swamiji is there something that i mean since there's nothing that seems to be that one needs to do or not need to do then what yes don't worry about it yes it it will be see one thing is because of the past karma of this particular body because of the past column of this particular body life will continue you will see life will continue and you'll live as a jivan mukta and by the wish of ishwara a lot of good will be done through you don't worry there'll be much more to do after you're enlightened then you do you think you're busy now you'll be much more busy after you're enlightened enlightened has a lot of work to do but that will be all god's work no more selfish works based on what you have you know taught us today would it be right to say that if i have to describe myself my reality that is the only way i can describe it is by saying i am yes i am uh or well you know i am that i am in the old testament it's there but if you understand like wittgenstein if you understand the meanings of the words they'll have a special meaning for you they will point to the theory but most people when you say i am what's so great about it everybody will say yeah i am but what they mean by that i am is body mind so that's not enlightenment that's just the way we are now that's just the waker pointing to himself or herself but when as a turian if you want to say i am yes i am i shine where the eye is not i i just uh like a placeholder which is being used to express the truth i am i shine i am infinite i am limitless i am without a second and drop all these words also the truth remains swamiji i have another question and it is related to what sangeeta had asked you about sritaka now in the gospel he keeps on talking about knowledge now the knowledge that he talks about in the gospel is it this knowledge you know or is it really knowledge based on um generally this is the same knowledge when he says gan gayana is basically it means this that realization of oneself as the atman as brahman but sometimes he means it in the sense of you know intellectually discussing something sometimes he means it in the sense of actually realizing it you have to see the context in the gospel thank you arjun you're next yes quick question so when i say i'm seeing you are not seen you are not seen you're a vice without form i know my video is not working no don't worry when i say i see is it the mind which sees or the real eye which is seen ah did you notice a few verses ago girish also raised this question is not this question a related question it seems when gaurav is talking about it seems that there is brahman there is the world of objects which appears to brahman in brahman and in between there seems to be an intermediary called the mind did you notice girish asked this question yes all right so turia itself appears as the subject and the object waker and waker's world right now for example arjun you're the waker and there is the world which you are experiencing waker and waker's world what manduke is telling you is you are actually not just this waker in the waker's world underneath this and the background of this as the essence of this is this consciousness which is turia which is you the real you now in the to become the waker you need a mind and a sensory system the whole thing is put in the hardware of the body and the whole world the jagrat prapancha the waker's universe is projected so all of this appears in tunia all of it is let's say powered by tunia given existence by turia lit up by tudia without turia none of this would exist just like the pot would not exist without the clay or the ocean would not exist without water so the entire waking universe is given existence by existence itself tudya and the mind is not only given existence but the mind is lit up by consciousness which is also given by turiya now this turiya this mind borrowing its existence and consciousness from the thuria becomes the knower and it knows the objects how by seeing by hearing by smelling tasting touching all the five senses dump their information gathered from the external world into the mind this mind is lit up by consciousness borrowed from turiya again by the mechanism of reflected consciousness and this mind now calls itself nowhere in sanskrit pramata is it nowhere by itself no it is always the real eye turya is always there good example is at night the world is lit up by the beautiful moonlight is how we speak and is perfectly all right but the truth is the moonlight is nothing but the sunlight you normally do not say at night world is lit up by the beautiful sunlight but the fact is that it it is the sunlight only so if you what you are asking the question is at night is it the moon which lights up the world or is it the sun which lights up the world the sun has the original light the only light there is belongs to the sun only similarly realize the knower or his mind then over real life provides the existence and consciousness and mind becomes for all practical purposes like the moon lighting of the world at night the mind becomes for all practical purposes the the ah effective practical transactional knower yeah but my question was where does the experience end right does it end at the mind level right basically end means i mean when i'm saying i'm seeing is is the turia seeing or is i mean that's where i'm having this confusion as i said right so does it see as far as the action the empirical part of it pramata is is active noah means the one who uses instruments of knowledge to gather knowledge each knowledge is an event it has a beginning and an end it has a source it has an object so all of this has a level of mind and world but what i am saying is without turia none of it would be possible yeah that i get maharaja yes but so basically okay i think i i got it see if you the turia did not exist would the mind still go on knowing the world neither mind would know the world nor mind and world would exist at all okay but the activity of of the mind and the world are they turiya's activity not really because mind and world do not really exist and are not causally connected with turiya turiya has no causal connection with mind and world related question earlier also is turia oblivious of the unreal right it's kind of connected to this question no it is not if there is anything that is cognizant of the unreal of the appearance it must be too real what else is cognizant of anything today by itself yeah so all activity all knowledge all enjoyment and suffering is all possible because of the turian without turia nothing is possible ah tudy is aware of it what as the waker as arjuna yeah um ken openishad asks how do we think how does the mind think thoughts how does how do the eyes see how do we breathe how do we talk and the answer is because of this consciousness so is that consciousness talking walking thinking another way of looking at it is um this light bulb this laptop this fan when they were in the shop the light bulb was not shining laptop the fan was not going round and round laptop was not giving zoom con conference what got into it that suddenly light is shining laptop is giving zoom confidence and fan is going round and round electricity got into it now what arjun is asking is does electricity go round and round does electricity shine does electricity carry on zoom conference what will you say i am not asking that yes i am asking is electricity aware because the difference between electricity and thuria is korea is aware electricity why what do you mean by aware then we go back to the actual nature of awareness is awareness according to you knowing only all knowing is possible because of today but turiya is not a knower in that sense is knowing possible without without awareness no but awareness possible yes you can call it awareness or consciousness but without knowing see there we go and see how deep this runs what would nagarjuna say at this point he would say without knowing where is the proof of awareness he would say nowhere and known they are mutually dependent we read that verse they come they depend on each other when only when you are knowing something thinking willing desiring seeing smelling tasting touching then only you are aware of yourself as awareness if there is no object to see hear smell taste touch if there is no thought no feeling would you even be able to know yourself as yeah awareness was that would be nagarjuna's uh doubt at that point the uh god of father says the turia exists nevertheless even without knowing anything it is the witness of the not knowing also it is a witness of the knowing readiness of not knowing but remember knowing witnessing these are verbs and turia is not an actor it does not do anything because of it all of this is happening oh god thank you [Music] foreign