Video 63

64. Mandukya Upanishad | Chapter 4 Karika 61-73

so we have been uh studying the fourth chapter of godhapadas mandu kyokarika which is his verse commentary on the mandukya upanishad and of course there is a sanskrit commentary by shankaracharya on godhapada's manduka karika now the fourth chapter uh the alata shanti prakarana the it's called the quenching of the firebrand the firebrand example is like this if you take a firebrand or like a you know we used to call them full judy or sparklers if you swing them around swing the firebrand around you'll get patterns you see patterns in the darkness like the patterns of light you can do that if you take a flashlight and swing it around also you can get those patterns in the darkness now just like that uh what godapad is proposing is that turia consciousness itself because of that consciousness like those patterns emerges uh the waker and the waking experience the dreamer and the dream experience these experiences are like those patterns and they emerge because of consciousness and really speaking gaurapath is saying they do not emerge there's nothing there that is there except that consciousness itself so uh that is the example of the firebrand and the quenching of the firebrand alata shanti the quenching of the firebrand is just recognizing that in all our varied experiences of life all these are like those patterns emerging because of swinging the fire brand around similarly all these varied experiences of life are nothing but the consciousness so all these varied experiences are merged back into the consciousness so to speak so to say this is the quietening or the cessation or the quenching of the fire brand it's not that you actually put the fire brand out you cannot consciousness is ever there and that's what you are realizing that everything in our in your life uh is like the fire bra the patterns emerging by waving the fire brand across that is what is called quenching the fire brand allah who am i i am that consciousness the turiam this is actually the same thing uh the central teaching of advaita vedanta that brahman alone is real the world is an appearance and you are none other than brahman in mandukya language the thorium alone is real the world what is the world in manduka language the waker's world the dreamer's word and even the potential uh world of the beaches seed form in that deep sleep they are all appearances just like the patterns which emerge when we swing a fair brand around and you the sentient being you who consider yourself to be this waker having a waking experience and you consider this to be the reality what vedante is telling you that no this is an appearance the reality is you are that background consciousness thorium what good does that do all good all trouble is in identifying ourselves with the changing mass of patterns body and the world and all peace solution to our problems is realizing here and now that we are that background consciousness which is immortal which is beyond change which is not subject to birth or death it's not subject to old age disease or death it's not subject to elation or depression so you're free of that even in the midst of the patterns all right um what we did last time was verse number um verse number 60. we did that last time so um language does not begin to describe either the theorem or the world appearance neither brahman nor the world appearance can be adequately described by language that was the meaning why can't brahman or thorium be described by language seventh mantra we saw um not an object of words that's what he's referring to here [Music] as means letters words cannot refer to the ultimate reality but here it specifically means words or cannot adequately describe this creation either especially the jivas us how do we emerge uh what is the cause and uh why is this happening you know what god pardo's answer is that causality is not real there is no real emergence of the jivas and there is no cause of them either thorium alone is the reality and therefore language cannot adequately describe even this specifically this is these statements are the origin of the later doctrine of anirvachanyata anirachanita means language cannot describe this creation as being either absolutely real or for or unreal it's not absolutely real because it comes and goes and knowledge uh falsifies it specific statement this creation is not absolutely real because it's falsified or falsifiable by knowledge you realize that it's not a snake so the snake which you saw if you can realize it's not a snake it's a rope in that case that snake was not a real snake um yet you cannot dismiss it as unreal as non-existent seeing that it makes all this difference that is swami vivekananda's language you cannot dismiss it as being unreal because seeing that it makes all this difference in our lives therefore language cannot describe it as being real or unreal anirbacheranium in sanskrit sad assad nirvanyam inability to express it as sat pure being or assad completely non-existent so that's what we had done now today we will go ahead i know i am rushing a little but uh for two reasons not just for the reason of completing it but also actually you will see and you are seeing how many of these things are repetitions um we have seen on this long journey that what was said in the first second and third chapters sometimes verb at him sometimes the actual verses are repeated so god has one objective here establishing non-duality and in his own way what is his way by attacking causality and there is no cause no effect only thorium is there so that is his approach and he is um what is the use of all of this we get a deeper understanding of what advaita means by exploring it together with gaurav he takes us into some very fascinating very deep and profound deliberations on non-duality and causality and it has its implications for our spiritual life also so i'll go ahead every three or four verses i'll stop and see what observations comments or questions are there shashank will help me by unmuting you he'll keep a lookout for your questions and we'll discuss it and then again take up a few more verses so that's how this uh evening will go all right let's see verse number 61 as in a dream the consciousness vibrates as though having dual functions duality so in the waking state consciousness vibrates as though with as though with duality so remember the example which i had um mentioned in the last class that i was in i was dreaming actually but it felt like i was in the plains of africa and being chased by a lion and i climbed the tree and all that that whole thing now where imagine the dream what was going on there i felt here i am located in a body and this body is located in a in a space this space of the plains of africa and there is time and there is space and there is this fearsome object the lion and there is an event lion is running and i am running and there are internal feelings also of fear and anxiety and terror and so on so all of this was experienced i and this world africa and the lion subject object now look at the verse it says as in your dream oh swami dwaya bhasam you saw this appearance of duality what duality subject object i am there these things are there and things are going on did you not see it yes i saw it but it was all the vibration of one mind maya that's why it's saying the appearance means appearance the appearance of duality why are you calling it appearance of duality because oswami did you not realize after waking up there was neither subject nor object nor was the swami there nor was the lion there and not nor the swami neither the lion subject object neither were there what was there chittam the mind alone or consciousness in itself it it was as if vibrating and dividing itself into two it was the dreamer's mind here he has used jittam as consciousness but we can take it as the mind it is the dreamer's mind which appears as subject and object and we all agree when we wake up that there was really no subject really no object although you experienced it fully as subject object dwaya bhasam appearance of duality okay we accept that's what happened in the dream then so what the did exactly the same thing is happening here in the waking world also you have consciousness in consciousness appears duality what is duality i am the subject server priyanda here and this is my object what is the object this computer and the people who are listening there this room space time it is 7 45 and so on all this is the objective world which i inhabit both of these are appearing in consciousness their appearances because chittam chalatimaya because of maya but remember at that time of course in goddard's time the fully developed post shankar advaithic whole maya apparatus was not there but he used it sort of in the sense of magic illusion appearance in inexplicability like that so chittamjalati maya consciousness because of maya appears as subject and object let me read out here for you vivekananda's poem which i've referred to again and again this is from song of the sannyasin there is but one the free the knower self without a name without a form or stain in him is maya dreaming all this dream the witness here pay attention here the witness sakshi he appears as nature soul he appears as nature object the world universe soul the subject no thou art that that means that consciousness that witness the the knower the self the free the one no dawah that's sannyasi bold say om tatsat om it's almost uh just uh um you know putting gowdapath in in this kind of uh in in english verse it's exactly the same thing which which gorillapod is saying here already we have got questions but no i'll do one more uh verse because it's exactly the same thing and then we will take questions number 62 [Music] i am [Music] there is no doubt that consciousness though one appears in dream in dual aspects so also in the waking state consciousness though one appears to have two aspects of duality subject object so exactly the same thing as earlier but here is saying the consciousness which is one turiya which is one not two that appeared in the dream as um the the swami and the lion let's not take today we will this discussion will become more deep in the next few verses but let's just say take for the sake of understanding in the dream just understand the dream example on its own terms without bringing in consciousness or thulia or anything like that a common sense understanding of dream which everybody will accept what is that in the dream i the dreamer forgetting myself that i am safe on my bed and sleeping for my my identity as the dreamer that's very important sleep makes you forget the reality once the reality is forgotten not within our um radar anywhere now i the one mind of the dreamer appears as two as duality or multiplicity i become the subject the swami wandering in the plains of africa or something i become the object also yeah as the one becomes nature and soul one consciousness or the one mind becomes like that now this is an accurate phenomenological description of our dream we all agree here now what the claim is so this is there's no doubt as god apartheid says nasa there is no doubt about it this is how we understand dreams in the same way in the waking also he is not saying that the mind is becoming all this it's rather he's saying turiyah the consciousness is appearing as true as you the subject the waker in manduka language vishwa and you are appearing as the universe experienced by the waker jagrad propancha the waking universe the one non-dual consciousness appears as a dual experience okay this is what's claimed here let's see shashank [Music] sounds like it should be assassinated as mind influenced by maya why did computer nandi introduce the word fight phrase that that introduces little more confusion why did government use the word the vibe breaks in the translation is vibrate means moves it's not it can be translated as influenced also right yes and that's what is the accurate meaning but the reason is gowdapadha himself uses such language spanda vibration you'll see earlier he is used and again he will use so the the way to reconcile this is because of maya it appears to move consciousness duria cannot move however our under if you are going to use the dream as an example you should not bring in turiyam so there though gaurav has used chitta in the sense of consciousness we will see later on we'll make a distinction between mind and consciousness and understand dream on its own terms just like everybody understands dream how do any of us understand dream our mind dreams and the mind definitely it moves it vibrates it changes yeah but you're right if you're going to talk about thorium or consciousness better not say jalati vibrates and also the question is that here the translation seems to translate them as consciousness it is and that's correct and waking yes it is and that's what's godu father's intention we will explore this a little later notice how i explained it i did not want to equate chittam with consciousness though godupath is consistently using chittam as consciousness here in most places but in vedanta we make a difference chittam is mind and chit is consciousness that is but these are later developments later clarifications garapatha therefore is little hard to grasp there but one can see what he is trying to say to make it easier we will take we'll take it in two steps instead of straight away jumping consciousness alone vibrates as subject object in dream there is no doubt consciousness alone vibrates as subject object in in waking there is no doubt that's what god happens and he means it he he means it literally and ultimately that's what it must be but we generally don't understand it that way we have to take it in two steps first step is dream means mind is dreaming you're not bringing consciousness into it ultra consciousness must be there without consciousness mind cannot do anything and then in the waking state just like in the dream subject objects are produced by the mind similarly the claim is in the waking state this so-called real universe is actually appearance in consciousness in chittam but if this is so it is also true in the dream in the dream also the mind of the dreamer and its own internal subject object the whole thing is an appearance in consciousness must be an appearance in turia because dreamer and dreamer's world waker and waker's world and deep sleeper and deep sleepers potential world they are all equally appearances in thuria so this is the conclusion god upon one sense is terribly difficult to not to understand but to digest but he is very consistent that when is very simple and straight that way and unshakable yes yes next i think girish wanted to ask something yes i find myself going back to basics all the time and chewing on the old questions again so in that vein i i understand the need for the concept of maya and and also karma to explain the waking world as experienced by the jivas maya is the appearance of the objects in brahman karma is the motive force of the world time space causation etc but why do we need the concept of transmigration of souls and reincarnation what does reincarnation contribute to an explanation of experiences because we don't even experience reincarnation to the most part ourselves and you know asked another way [Music] death for the dream drivers the dream jivas and dreamers dream is like a light switch the dreamer wakes up and the and the jivas are dead essentially they don't reincarnate so why do the jivas of the waking world trans-vibrate if you want right in spirit in a sense you know that god apart agrees with you see he dismisses karma when he dismisses causality dismisses karma we have gone through this earlier there was a whole discussion about karma what is karma then which comes first does karma come first or the body come first that means the birth come first and then there's a whole multi-step step discussion which led to the questioning of the whole concept of karma and overthrowing it but you cannot do it halfway house use if you say i understand the need for karma then you should understand the need for reincarnation also if karma is in some way to be accepted to make sense of this world then all these effects you are presented with because we don't enter the world at the very beginning we enter the movie when the movie is already on we are burned when things are already going on presumably for a long time if that's our understanding then we are presented with a whole menu of effects for which where are the causes why is one kid born in an affluent country with the parents who give that kid all facilities and you know another kid is born in the midst of feminine and danger and death why what karma did that kid perform if karma is true then karma must extend backwards also before this birth and the old question people ask that hitler did so many bad things why did he not suffer now one death is not enough probably true in that case there must be effects later on uh this person did so so much good but whereas there is the reward for that that person just suffered and died so we we don't see a match between causes and effects if that is not if cause and affects an unbroken change for everything then why not for the jivas unbroken chain means it goes backwards and uh extends forwards also in time but yes gowdapath questions the whole thing you know you saw that discussion yeah right yes yes one uh just before you go uh just to remind you we have said this again and again remember we are dealing with gauravada we are dealing with the with the everest peak the highest peak in the himalayas which are pretty high themselves so in advaita vedanta there is nothing higher than this i mean higher than this at the most you can say ashtavakra or something will be there but that's they're not trying to do philosophy there they're just stating a conclusion the conclusion of say gora padha if you state it in 18 chapter over hundreds of verses you will get ashtavakra but when you are doing philosophy gora pada is sort of the last word you will see maybe today or tomorrow he will go even further do you think he cannot go further you know his precious conclusions non-causality ajayatawad the the doctrine that nothing is originating that also he will abandon you will see i mean it will just leave you breathless all right go ahead yeah so swamiji the waking world is also like the dream world according to yes so from where are we getting the uh concept of objects like if there's no let me answer this specific question do you understand it's a good question because and it's an ancient question and it's wonderful that you're coming up with it now it just shows that your thinking is on track but it's a really ancient question um non-dualists have been faced with this question from dualists you know what the form of the question is as she said if you see a snake in a rope and the snake is not true then you must have seen a snake earlier the dualist asks this question that it's because you saw a real snake somewhere you have a samskara of a snake and that's why you make this mistake seeing a rope in semi darkness you suddenly see it as a rope if that's your example then or non-dualist or advaitan you are in trouble because you are admitting that you must have seen a real world sometime and now you are mistaking brahman for the world so if there is a real world which you saw sometime now why go to all this convoluted philosophy why not just say you're seeing the real world now why say that you're mistaking brahman for the real world this is the question the answer is subtle but it's also very interesting the answer is to make a mistake what do you need you need to have it is true you need to have the impression of a snake which and to get the impression of a snake you must have got it some sometime earlier you must have experienced it you must have experienced it experienced a snake earlier to to make a mistake about a snake now understood this is we are agreed on this now the advaithin says notice what you just said you said you need a prior experience of an object like a snake to make a mistake about it now right yes does that prior experience have to be of a real external object or could it be an appearance i'm asking could it be possible that the child who sees this movie about ghosts can make a mistake about to go you know get scared about ghosts at night and says mommy there's a ghost in my room is it possible is it possible that a child who sees jurassic park and sees a movie about dinosaurs has never seen a real dinosaur can in dream about dinosaurs can have a nightmare about dinosaurs can see a dark moving tree outside the window and think that there's a dinosaur is it possible yes now it's it happens all the time the the advaitan says all you need to make a mistake is the previous experience and the previous experience need not be of a real thing it could be of an appearance you can experience an appearance and then make a mistake about it again there need not at all be for example they might not be ghosts you may hear stories about ghosts and they have never ever might never have been a ghost and yet you make a mistake about ghost children have imaginary friends all the time similarly these are projections in consciousness god or father would say like firebrand moving and you get these experiences life after life and you experience them again that's the answer so this is this is due to the projecting power of women yes yes uh because of maya consciousness appears as subject object as um swami vivekananda said one alone exists the witness it appears as nature soul witness sakshi consciousness turia pure consciousness appears as nature means the entirety of prakriti universe maya and all its products and soul means to subject you consciousness with mind operating through senses and the body both are appearances right i'll just stop there shashank yeshua 62 he says that the waking state which is non-dual why is the waking state non-dual um oh therefore in the waking not only in waking state in waking in the dream in deep sleep there is only one reality turiya which is non-dual but it appears as dwell in the waking yes so what he says is swapne in dream it is the non-dual theorem which is appearing as the duality just like we don't understand it that way but the way we understand it is my mind is appearing as subject object in sleep and that's a good example yeah and here also in the waking the same thorium which is non-dual is appearing as duality good now let's move on 63 um 64. okay 63 and 64. simple enough and this discussion will become pretty deep in 65 and 66 but 63 and 64 are similar all right in fact before i get into it let me just explain what's going to happen this is a deeper exploration of the dream and making examples which we just saw it helps to have this picture in mind consciousness mind and world consciousness mind and world consciousness is thorium atman purusha sakshi whatever you call it our real nature and that's all that's the real subject the the ultimately the illuminati of all experiences and that's what we are according to advaita vedanta now introduce the mind thoughts feelings emotions in vedanta the four functions the ego ahamkara the intellect buddhi the um the storehouse of impressions the chitta and the mind itself the manus which in which all sense organs dump their information which coordinates everything and so on and so forth all the functions of the our inner being thoughts feelings emotions ideas memories desires intentions all of that mind and the world external world and our bodies too anything physical anything publicly shared between us which we all see so we have three now consciousness mind world consciousness is uh is the real subject it is never never an object it's impossible for it to be an object the mind is the provisional subject which experiences the world it's an object to consciousness but it is the subject when it comes to knowing the world and the world is always an object let me repeat that very important consciousness is ever the subject it can never be objectified the mind is an object with respect to consciousness it's an object to consciousness and i'm not saying anything strange here because we are aware of our thoughts feelings emotions if you introspect you're aware of that they're lit up by you the consciousness that's all i mean so the mind is an object with respect to consciousness but with respect to the world the mind is a subject it knows the world so we have three now now let's go into it these verses we'll be able to understand these better this consciousness mind world he uses this paradigm to understand dream and he again uses this paradigm to understand waking so keep it in mind consciousness mind world verse number 63 [Music] let's do 64 also they're given together here [Music] so what is what has been said here in a dream in a dream the dreamer becomes a subject a knower in this world just take by example of my dream in africa so i find myself in this vast plane and uh there's this lion and i can see my own body so i am the swap nadrik i am the knower of this the seer of the dream is the subject the person in the dream already in the dream prachar and swapna wandering around in the dream world dikshu in the in the ten in the ten directions dikshi white dashes titan so wandering in the ten directions or knowing things in ten directions what are the ten directions this is just you know north west east and south and then northeast and northwest and southeast and um southwest so eight directions and then up and down so ten directions knowing things in all 10 directions experiencing things in all 10 directions where in the dream world i am the dreamer so there's consciousness and the dreamer's mind the subjective mind of the person in the dream experiencing all the creatures there what are those creature creatures under john's veda jaan varpi so this is not important but requires little explanation burn of eggs and burn of moisture so they had a simple classification of beings now in school we learned an elaborate latin classification of all plants and animals you have to memorize that and write down you know by the phyla and the genera and the species and all of that very detailed and elaborate but in those days they had a very simple classification for the purposes of just doing philosophy so all living beings are of they divided into four categories um born of womb so mammals um human beings like like us all mammals born of the womb and then uh anderja born of eggs so like birds and reptiles and so on and then um there was the swedish of burn of moisture now before you start yelling there's nothing born of moisture it's like insects or lice or um you know a mosquito for example so we know that they're born of eggs of course but they're usually born in humid or moist places so that's why the you will find the city or the municipality tells you to not to have leave stagnant water lying around because it leads to so anyway so their idea was there are creatures tiny creatures born of moisture and then udbid means that which is born bursting forth from the earth so plants on the which germinate from under the earth and then burst forth you know pierce the earth literally means piercing the earth there are four kinds of creatures gauravada mentions only two here anderjaan means born of eggs and swadarjan born of humidity um jivan pastiati answered so in the dream i see all these beings i see um the lion coming ah so the lion is born not of an egg but of the boom of its mother like a lioness and then there is this uh tree i saw so it's born it's an utv it's born from the earth we are seeing the earth and so on so all these creatures which we experience in the dream that's the first one it's a description of the dream state now how did i experience these i the subject was the mind of the dreamer and the object was this dream world 65th verse says notice all these creatures the entire dream world did not exist apart from the mind this we realize when we wake up the dreamer's mind my mind alone produced those all those creatures in the dream including me the fellow who was walking around in the plains of africa none of them exist apart from the dreamer's mind point one and then he makes this next conclusion and the dreamer's mind has no existence apart from consciousness it is revealed by consciousness it appears in consciousness and it disappears in consciousness two levels all the um creatures and everything with places events whatever you saw in the dream all types of creatures born of egg or whatever all the places the plains of africa all the events which happened the space and time all of that and the personal body all of that is not separate from the mind which dreamt it absolutely true step two the mind which dreamt it is not separate from the consciousness which illumines that mind it does not exist apart from that consciousness it's like a wave in that consciousness it's no more than a pattern of the fire brand it's no more than a vibration of that consciousness within quotes so this is the description of the dream now you know where this is going he's immediately going to apply to the waking state 65-66 he is going to apply the same thing to the waking state charan under [Music] tata [Music] all right so it's easy to understand these verses because they're exactly almost sort of rhythmic repetition of the earlier verses what did he say in the ten directions in the waking world right now as you are walking around everywhere in your room and outside and wherever maintaining social distancing and all of that all of this which you see and all the beings you come across born of eggs are born of humidity or born of the womb all these and the plants in the central park all these beings you come across all the things which are happening in this waking world the space and the time and all of that is nothing apart from the mind which is experiencing it some of you should look skeptical now here he is taking a very began of other position the buddhist idealist position this thing an idealist position here none of this is we can argue this out none of this is anything apart from the mind which is experiencing it the subject which experiences it the mind your mind right now that is uh and all that you experience now is in you in in that mind itself so that's the 65th verse 66th that mind it does not exist apart from the consciousness in which it is appearing and which is illumining that mind so the consciousness is the reality is the ultimate subject in which appears the mind which becomes a provisional subject which knows the objects which are also appearing in that mind so this objective world is now understood to be nothing other than the mind which is experiencing that objective world right now waking is making this claim you the mind are experiencing the subject which is experiencing the objects the objects are not different from you the subject and you the subject the subjective mind is not different from the real subject consciousness remember that picture consciousness mind world in the what he did in the dream he reduced everything experienced in the dream to the dreaming mind then he reduced the dreaming mind to nothing but the consciousness which was illumining the dream which is that thorium the same consciousness now illumines the waking state in the waking state what happens everything that you experience is nothing apart from the uh waker's mind your mind and your mind is nothing apart from the consciousness studium thorium is the only reality which appears as mind then becomes which becomes the provisional subject and then appears as its objects and you have subject object experience that's his or the mandukya world view don't worry he'll reject all of it very soon all right now let's see if you have any questions right now uh so the question i have is as i do understand that is making the parallel between the dream state to the real world yes to an extent one can also apply that to deep sleep but then looking at the question earlier question which greasy asked that about puna germa and all that how do you tie the experiences past death into what category does it go to the deep sleep area does it go to the dream area or how do you reconcile the janma which is after death and then the karma law applies it because you can look at only three states right waking the dream and deep sleep and then thurium is the ultimate so what about the state which is past of your death is there a new state or is it already included notice that all states are false according to godapada he's not saying that there is turiam and there is waking and there is dream and there is deep sleep no he is saying there is only ethereum now when you ask about karma and past lives and future lives and all of that you are ignoring durian what you are saying is this life is real this waking life and i have had earlier lives in which i had similar experiences waking dreaming deep sleep and now i am having waking dreaming deep sleep and future lives in which i live begging dreaming deep sleep so this is the common sense idea our the basic materialist idea is that this is cut off from birth and death when with the birth of the body this experience begins with the death of the body this experience ends religion extends it further vedanta buddhism or any of the religions says no no not with the beginning of the body not with the beginning of the end of the body the mind and the body are not mind is not born from the body the mind exists before the body with the body and then after the body and other bodies so there is a continuation we have come here through many lives and many bodies bringing with many samskaras and then we are going through these experiences and we will have further experiences in future and if you believe in god and some kind of spirituality you will get maybe liberated from this whole cycle goerdapada rejects this whole thing he is saying that waking dreaming and deep sleep are not ultimately real their appearance is in consciousness if waking dreaming and deep sleep are not ultimately real then what we experience in waking dreaming deep sleep individual going through experiences possibly past lives future lives all of that now becomes under question right so gorda pada is not interested in fact he will say that past life and future life keep it apart for the time being do you even have a present life he will say it's like asking the swami that i will save you from the lion but tell me first this lion why do you think it is attacking you oh i am a vedantist i know some past life i must have been a lion and bitten one swami now the lion is going to bite me so oh so you existed i must have because i can see the effect so karma must be there and that karma i don't remember so it must be somewhere before my birth as a swami gora father will say are you really a swami is this really africa is there really a lion is this all really happening does it require an explanation no what does it require waking up waking up when you see it from the waking person oh i was in manhattan in my bedroom then all the questions are unimportant why the lion attacked me the answer is there was no line and there's no me it looked like that no doubt even after waking up i cannot deny i saw it was an experience so i have to say that it was not ultimately real ultimately real is either acre here gorupada is saying push it further here also right now also what is it that you are experiencing external world mind of sarva priyananda illumine by awareness now this external world of priyananda is it different from the mind of sarah priyananda god of father says no here a big step is being taken in philosophy they call it subjective idealism so this is borrowing from the buddhists but then it goes further even the mind of server priyananda has is there any proof of that mind without the consciousness once you go to consciousness it's no longer server priyanka anymore so where is sarvapriyananda in this mind in this world but this mind and this world are both appearances in an impersonal consciousness which is common to all of us or rather we are all appearances in that in personal consciousness that is gaurapatha's very radical claim and you have to realize it here and now there i woke up what is waking up i moved from one state to another i moved happily from dream to waking and that solved my problem here god apartheid says you cannot move to another state there are only three states and moving from state to state will not help you all these states are due to ignorance the reality is the reality underlying these states which is always available turiya is available right now turiya was available in dream today is available in deep sleep but but a waking state has the peculiar advantage of having mandukka and zoom and people to talk about it and helping you to come out of this yes so coming out is not going to another state called turia coming out is realizing that i am the turya okay thank you thank you you do realize the questions you are asking a proper questions in any kind of dualistic religious context and there are answers there are answers what about past life and how does it work and they will give you a long answer god apartheid says is any of it is it true that's what he's asking yeah all right bill a comment and a question the comment is about what you just said about the dream the psychoanalyst would look at the at your dream and say oh this says something about your emotions in your waking life yes but that aside here's my question uh somewhere swimming vivekananda says god the infinite dreamer dreaming finite dreams yes did goropoda agree with that formulation in fact gaurav would agree with what i just read out from swami vivekananda he said there is but one the free the noah self without a name without a form or stain this is a wonderful um pointing towards the turiya in him him with a capital h is maya dreaming all this dream in him is maya dreaming all this dream exactly this in turiya is maya dreaming all this stream that's the last explanation that gorda pada would would sort of provisionally sign up on he has the least objection to that explanation every other explanation he has an objection to he has an objection to the very concept of explanation remember if you try to explain why the lion was chasing the swami you are already moving away from the truth which is that there was no line and there was no swami neither was there africa similarly here this we want an explanation of this dream gurapada says if you want to call it maya i have minimal objections what then what would god want us to do he wants us to give up the whole search for explanations the very search for explanation makes it real we are making causality real when you search for an explanation you're asking why yeah so he doesn't wonder why there's this whole world experience it is not there see he is very literal when you say look at your question why is there a whole world of experience is for him is his only turia i mean he says these experiences are there they have their own reality whether or not they're bound you know he will come to it their own reality yes so there is a kind of own reality to it which he will talk about later but the easiest way to understand guru pada is suppose you take only the standpoint of thorium the absolute reality then what would you say about all of this that's what god upon says it may sound crazy to us and it's going to get crazier now and we'll see now so maya can have a dream no toriya can have a dream through maya maya itself has no independent reality what is happening now is because of maya we are having this dream but first we have to realize the dream nature of it all that's the way out of it otherwise we'll be trapped in it yeah okay right now who's next all right nobody let's go on um actually yes so i have a question mark is there any question comment so far because i had a big confusion was that uh dream world what i see in the dream comes is a product of the mind that is containing waking world it's whatever i see is the appearance on consciousness and here in the 6th verse yes trying to say that it is there's also my it's also about the mind yes i can understand the whole thing now it makes easy the understanding much more easier that's what it's a comment not a question so am i correct to say that the waking world are also what i am seeing is a product of the mind yes but you might say it makes your world easier but does it it makes it more difficult our ability to distinguish between dream and waking makes our common sense life possible what god is advocating is pretty radical he wants you to treat the waking world like you treat the dream world no more real he is logical he is very logical yeah he is very logical but if you treat your job and your wife husband children as figments of dream you see what they do to you then the reaction will be pretty harsh it will convince you that they are real so yes but guardapath is logical he says the same thing could have happened even in the in the it will come next how he gives a provisional reality to this waking world what bill was saying um he would have said see even you we all agree that africa experience was a dream but in that dream if when you're running from the lion and somebody tells you it's a dream don't run from the land treat it as a dream it's quite possible that the land would have jumped on you and you would have had the terrible experience of being torn apart by a lion guarded would have said that that is also a dream no if you are willing to do that in the waking state it happened swami turiyan anandaji he is with gurudes is an american monk they are traveling towards um i think they are in uttarakhand and in they are on a pilgrimage and at night they are staying in a place with other pilgrims they have lit a fire it's cold there are monks and devotees householders all of them are pilgrims now they are discussing vedanta and turinani of course was a fiery vedantis he's talking about the unreality of the world and then one gentleman said no no you cannot equate this life with this waking life with dream and turianji insisted it's like a dream nothing more it's an appearance then the gentleman said can you thrust your hand into the fire and turiandi got excited he stood up and said yes i can do it the hand will get burnt but i know it's neither the fire not the hand this body is real i know i can do that and he was about to do a jump and into the fire when a group of people caught hold of him and pulled him back see he's very logical that way just because you think it's a dream will not even in the dream a dream lion can eat up a dream swami a dream fire can burn the dream swami's dream hand also but it and the pain also will be there but yes um you can see that they are all appearances that's what god is saying but that's the understanding that is the only way to get out of suffering absolutely absolutely absolutely true let me just uh go ahead with next few verses so that was 65 and 66 now if you see what's going on underneath it's very interesting 64 63 64 65 66 gora pada has taken up the began of the buddhist argument that the world is a projection of the mind remember not just consciousness of the mind itself subjective idealist just like the dream it seemed to happen outside but it was all in your mind waking world is also it seems to be outside the world but it's actually all in your mind that's what who says not vedantic the subjective idealist buddhist vigyanavada buddhist and someone like barkley the bishop berkeley the philosopher subjective idealism and gowdapada has used it you see as he says just as a dream world is not different from the dreamer's mind similarly waking world is not different from the waker's mind but just as the dream world dream mind is also an object to dream conscious to the consciousness and not apart from it similarly waker's mind is also an object to you the consciousness not apart from you that was god upon this argument now if you see the next verse you will see he is using the argument of another kind of buddhist the sunniavadi it is a very nagarjunian argument which you will go into now what he will say let me just say that it's a very sophisticated point he's going to make he says you know something mind and its object and they depend on each other have you noticed something the way we were talking now it's as if the mind is projecting its objects yeah lion and africa and all projected by the mind as if we are giving the giving the impression the mind is real and the objects are unreal like the mind is the projector and the objects are unreal its mind is like the dreamer and there is some reality to the mind as if the mind can exist without projecting the objects but he says is it true isn't it rather that the knower and the known they arise together and fall together think about it whenever there is some knowing then only the when the object is known the knower is also known you have the experience of subject and object together or not at all the way you are arguing till now is as if you are trying to prove the subject is real and the object is unreal as if the object is a dream of the subject that's what you're trying to do when you're trying to say maya or god is dreaming this universe you are certainly in indicating or not so subtly that the dreamer god maya is something real and the rest is the dream of that maya god subject or whatever but is that true now he will ask isn't it more true that both of them come up together and disappear think about it many people have come across this or stumbled across it but it's actually nagarjuna's insight when there are no thoughts when there are no perceptions feelings imaginations thoughts is there a mind at all when are you aware of the mind when the mind knows something when the mind thinks something when are you aware of the eyes when there is something to see when are you aware of the ears when there's something to hear knower and known subject and object rise and fall together they depend on each other both are false this is nagarjuna's argument not only is the world false that is the vikyanavadi but the knowing consciousness is also false why because they both rise and fall together there is no evidence of the mind existing without the known object i had an experience once in a very dark room in the himalayas it was so dark no light at all that i could not see anything even with my eyes open and i remember opening and closing my eyes rapidly and seeing it made no difference i could have been blind i would not have known the difference where is the evidence that your eyes are open if there is nothing to see where is the evidence of sense organs if there are no sense objects where is the evidence of a knowing mind if there are no knowable objects deep sleep deep sleep is suppose you consider deep sleep nothing is experienced we say the sleeping mind mind has dissolved into its deeply deep sleep statement it's all language nagarjuna will say you're just playing with words where is the proof of the existence of the mind when the objects of waking or dreaming are not there so nowhere and known rise together fall together it is both they are mutually supporting illusions they have no existence of their own don't try to make out as if the knower is real and the known is just an appearance both are equally false this is what he will say now 67 [Music] they the mind and the the object subject and object are both perceptible to each other nowhere unknown the question arises does it exist the answer is given no both of them lack valid proof and each is perceived merely because of a preposition with the other with because of an dependence on the other because of an a mutual obsession which is a very interesting position to take and underlying as i told you if you have a background in buddhism you see how gora padha has shifted from using viganavada buddhist logic subjective idealist mind is projecting its objects and then consciousness projecting the mind two subject object both rise and fall together the example used by nagarjuna by chandra kitty who is a commentator on hundreds of years before gowdapada they don't use snake and rope example you see the interesting thing about snake and rope example is we it proves snake is an appearance though we see it it's not real and there is a reality which we do not see called rope similarly we will say there is this world it's an appearance and we do not it's not real but there is a reality which we do not see which is our reality which is turia brahma put atma something so snake group example immediately points to an underlying reality but the example chandra kitis is fond of is bales of hay hay which is tied together and they are kept in the field you will see after cutting they kept like this stacks against each other like this mutually interlocking and supporting bales of a they are not depending on something else they are depending on each other there is no further reality to them mutually interdependent their eyes say suppose you take them away subject object are you saying there is nothing that also nagarjuna will not say he said i do not say there is nothing it's all because it says that then people will make nothing into an ultimate reality chandra kit uses another example of a child who was told by his mother here is some paisa go to the shop and buy the groceries and don't come back empty-handed so he goes and he asks for these things and the shopkeeper says but it's all gone i don't have anything i have nothing and then the child said all right give me some of that i cannot go back empty-handed so you said you have nothing so give me some of that so nothing is also not a thing you cannot say that there is nothing if that sounds very confusing and you are not alone so guard up other here now will you say that he is denying turiya itself no no no what he is denying is earlier he had said there is a world there is a mind and there is consciousness then he defined he said that the world is an appearance because it's all in the mind now he's saying the mind is also not really real both mind and world appear and disappear together and you know his project is to point towards the underlying theory turia does not apply appear or disappear together you see why why turiya is that which reveals the subject and object interacting and when subject and object are not interacting deep sleep samadhi that is also you are speaking about it people have experienced it how so there must be something there that is the theory so that's what he's saying i mean he has not said it explicitly but he means that he is not denying thuriya but he is denying the ultimate reality of mind ultimate reality of external world dismissed by viganavadhi buddhist and the reality of the knowing mind now dismissed by the sunnivadi buddhist and is leaving the ground clear for advaita i am reading all this into it but of course he does not say it like that then let us do three more verses um 68 69 70. simple and easy verses so what about us what about these let's forget the great turia but jiva back to sentient beings like us what are we then we means the apparent person the reality we are touring no doubt 68 69 70 yatha [Music] as a creature seen in a dream undergoes birth and death so also do all these creatures appear and disappear [Music] as a creature conjured up by magic undergoes birth and death so also only do all these creatures appear and disappear [Music] [Music] as a creature produced through medicines and charms undergoes birth and death so also do all these creatures appear and disappear um artificial creature so i was reading in jewish mythology there is this idea of a golem so it's a mass usually of clay or mud which is animated you put the name of god write it down and put it in the mouth of that golem it's a vaguely human shape it becomes animated and the one who controls it it will do all tasks for you and once you take it out it will again become a lump of clay was it really born did it really die no it appeared to be an animate creature so i guess one day if we have or we are almost there robots for example and you can plug pull the plug on them similarly he says artificial creatures artificial creatures nirmitaka or jiva so he has given three examples as all the creatures in your dream they appear to have personal histories the swami in that africa and the lion also was chasing the swami and the tree which the swami and the lion both climbed all of them seemed to be really there and you you might trace out their histories who were they where did they come from who were their parents what is their lineage all of that you can trace out but no it's inexplicable actually they have no birth no death they appeared in the dream similarly he says ami jiva every living being who has ever lived or will live or is living on this planet are appearances like that he says they appear to exist and then they don't appear to exist they appear not to exist it's not actually a real story of birth living dying no then he goes and another example maya my o jiva like a magician who produces apparently living creatures you know a dove out of a pigeon out of a hat or something like that though those are actually real pigeons but there's a slight of hand there but imagine illusory creatures produced by magic they really don't have a birth they really don't have an end they are all appearances or illusions similarly all creatures here just like artificial creatures like a golem so also all creatures here then what is real are we not real yes you are real but as dodium swami vivekananda put it there put it here somebody asked but what about us individually as persons we want to be immortal absolutely real as persons that's not possible so vivekananda said this individuality he would make fun you're not individuals yet think about it which individual the baby the child the young man or woman the old person the one in in coma in the icu which individual are you these are just like a work in process a series of changes which is your reality this is only when we are identified with the absolute are we truly individual then it's the cosmic indeed i don't want to go there because that also god of father will dismiss cosmic individual is the virat or the hiranyakarba that's also an appearance all right now let me do just two more okay let me do these seventy one seventy two seventy seventy one nakashi jayate jiva [Music] so the grand conclusion is really speaking no creature which has birth whichever has birth there is no source for it and no creature is truly born this is the highest truth where nothing whatsoever is born nakasji jayate jiva ultimately do they appear to be they are not truly born why to be born to be created to be produced you require a source a cause there is no cause for that thuriya is the only reality and it can never be a cause it is consciousness it is unchanging it cannot change into that which is not consciousness so these are all appearances in turia you might as well say the mind of the swami became a human being became the land mass of africa became the lion no those were all appearances the mind continued to be mind similarly both the world and the mind are appearances in turia which continues to be turian sambhav sambhava means cause there is no cause no possible cause of the birth of creatures notice this is the exact last verse of third chapter advaita prakaranam if you see the last verse and then 48th verse you see this verse itself this so godappada keeps picking out those things and quoting them again and again okay absolute truth um 72 so the absolute truth is that there is turia only non-dual theory then what is all this all that we are seeing 72. chittas beautiful verse this duality possessed of subject and object is a mere vibration of consciousness and consciousness is objectless hence it is declared to be eternally without relations very powerful verse so let's break it up 72 chittam spanditta mayweatham we have seen this earlier the language of vibrations panda it's as if it's a vibration of consciousness what appears mind thought perceptions and world all of these are like appearances in consciousness just like good example is dream mind being mind not at all changing from mind appeared to project human beings and animals and space and time and events all of that and that's something we cannot deny we experience in dreams all the time and nowadays we have virtual reality which we experience very realistic environments 3d with sound and motion all of that we can experience it can be generated you just have to give the right impulses to the senses and the mind will do the rest make a world out of it then next part he says how does it vibrate how does consciousness vibrate remember caution from advaitha perspective really no vibration it's because of maya it seems to be a vibration otherwise you will create trouble for advaita if consciousness starts vibrating it will become kashmiri shaivism how does it vibrate so called vibration as subject object graha graha i see her in the scene um hearer and the herd smeller and the smell tasted and tasted uh as thinker and thought and so but chittam nirvishayam because conscious all these are projections of consciousness at no time are they anything apart from consciousness think about the dream when the dynamic action is going on the sweating poor swami is running across the plains of africa chased by a lion so much activity is going on time space event living beings predator and prey and all of that at no point is it anything other than thought isn't it it's the dreamers mind at no point there are no spaces time uh events people animals nothing it's a dream exactly like that he's saying chittam nirvishyayam nityam there is really no object really no object of consciousness there are appearances of objects but no actual object the way we think it right now there is a word out there here i am and consciousness is experiencing a world apart from it real objects real subject experiencing no nirvish i am without consciousness with consciousness without object when in samadhi when you get brahmagyana no nityam in waking state in dream state in deep sleep state none of them present any object for consciousness really so stunning thing to think of if you have no object then what is not possible no relationship is possible no subject object relationship is possible why because there are no objects so he says therefore it is sung in the upanishads this purusha consciousness is asanga without any attachment non-stick consciousness why because there's nothing for it to stick to there's nothing for it relationship requires at least two poles two terms dwinished dwinishtasambanda two real terms think about it can the clay have a relationship with the pot clay pot it's made of clay does the clay have a relationship with the pot no because there is no part apart from the clay itself can the water in the wave the water have a relationship with the wave no so consciousness has no relationship with what it experiences because they are all no second item or entity apart from the experiencing consciousness and therefore consciousness is asango asangawayam purushaha upanishad says that this is ever unattached even in the midst of thousand relationships 10 000 attachments friend enemy boss employee father son daughter husband wife grandfather grand you know grandchildren my eternal enemy i will never forgive that person there is not one real relationship here you are eternally unattached to anything proof notice none of it continues none of these so-called relationships ever continues they all have beginning and end and even when they have when they seem to exist at that time also they don't exist that's why you have no connection with anything here every relationship when you forget thuriya also every relationship it disappears in deep sleep every relationship disappears in deep sleep why deep sleep it disappears in dreams there are other relationships and in the waking state also now if you consider even the deepest relationship how much do you think about it do you think about it every moment of every hour of every day no to keep a relationship alive it requires the mind and to keep the mind alive it requires consciousness the consciousness itself is unattached asanga very important notice this now what is the take home from this you are already at home so what is the what is the spiritual message from this one very powerful message while conducting while in the midst of all of these experiences and relationships know that you are by your very definition by your very existence ever free from everything never feel tied down burdened you don't have to run away to the mountain top in himalayas to be free of relationship to be free of bondage nothing ever can bind you down asanga purusa means nothing can bind this consciousness down nothing ever has actually there is no other thing what will bind you down is just think about it it's a stunning thing it means that you are ever free you wear free you are free you will always be free there is even nothing that you have to do about it except realize it all right then number 73 i'll end with that we'll take a couple of questions i am going to this because there is an important point being mentioned here because prabhupada asked about this uh some amount of reality to be given to this world 73 so here gorda padha climbs down from his high horse and makes some allowance for us poor people 73 yo yo that which exists because of a fancied empirical outlook does not do so from the standpoint of absolute reality anything that may exist on the strength of that empirical outlook engendered by other systems of thought does not really exist so what does he mean here so he says all that you are experiencing has a certain transactional reality viva harika he calls it samrithi satyam this is nagarjuna's term nagarjuna said the buddha gave two kinds of teaching samriti and paramarthika so according to nagarjuna the eightfold way the four noble truths buddha himself eightfold bay nirvana all of that samsara all of that is samrita the apparent truth sabriti literally means covering sanskrit samrity means covering that which covers up this samritti term was abundant later and it became in advaita vedanta became vyabaharika transactional empirical so there is a certain empirical value to it this is important to notice because after a strong dose of gowda pada people go around demolishing everybody else's it's all false it does not matter it's a dream don't care and then you get into clash with other people who don't understand they have not gone through manduka for two years they are normal people we have become abnormal so they are normal people they will they will say what do you mean the world is false it's absolutely true it's true you're seeing it hearing it and they will say things like go without food one day you will realize the world is true or not yeah and you will answer god father has very nice answers to all of that no one and no no they depend upon each other rise and fall food and eater of the food yeah so if food is not there the eater will be hungry food is there eater will be satisfied but does not mean neither food or not the eater is real people will think this man has gone crazy we stopped going to zoom classes so brainwashed so gurapatha here says no there is a field of transactional reality samriti satyam or beva hadika satyam whatever you call it in the dream you better behave as if the lion is real as you are behaving and run away from the line if you're going to save yourself and pray to god also knowing all the while he says nasty or soon it's not true paramatica what is the language he used paramar thin and astia so from turia perspective my in reality internally you know all of this is an appearance if so use your common sense in the midst of appearance if you feel thirsty in the dream go to the dream lake and drink the dream water knowing all the time it is dream in the waking state after this please go and have your dinner as i will after reading that the dinner is false and the eater is false but there is a transactional reality in which it has a as a value see you will spoil the whole thing if in the in the movie from the beginning to end a harry potter movie if you taken your children to watch it and you tell the children from beginning to end there is no harry potter there is no magic there is no movie beginning twenty if you keep on telling that then the movie is spoiled within the movie there is a plot there is a hero there is a villain there is activities something happens give so you must retain the ability to act within the movie knowing all the time it's a movie you see otherwise what's the use of advaita advaita tells you while being fully active reasonable discussing accepting everything what people are saying as real also knowing that there's a deeper reality parameter where all of this is an appearance all of god applies it's true but i can function just like everybody else in this world and better than everybody else why everybody else take this world to be the reality and the only reality therefore terror and temptation and fear and anxiety you know all of these are appearances in indus ethereum neither the kovid nor the body affected by kovid nor the person i say i am lying down in icu and coma and dying no problem from turia perspective all of it is an appearance if the person this body dies and falls also as it will one day it is a of no consequence at all to the real you you are totally free of it you never wear this body why are you so concerned about this body you are completely free completely safe all the time without any effort so this is what the the grand conclusion that gaurapatha tells us but within the vehicle please behave you can behave you are free to behave don't be this crazy mandukya gowdapatha person spoiling everybody's dinner and saying crazy things so then he says what about the other philosophers please make a philosophical point paratantra other philosophies other philosophies are also viva harika so when the i can accept and understand when the sankhya says consciousness is real but world is also real two realities consciousness and word for prakriti pollution i say i put put certain restrictions limitations parameters on the advaithic perspective you will get sankhya put further restrictions you will get something like niya you say no jiva jagat ishwara is real duita vedanta will tell you is perfectly comfortable with that only thing he says he doesn't have to go and say there's all false no upon a deeper investigation you find a deeper reality called thuriya but if you don't want to go there dwithavadhi does not accept nir guna brahman does not accept thuriya as we have talked about vishista dwight does not accept they all stop all theistic religions stop with um jiva jagatishwara there is god there is the world and there is you now let's talk all right the advaitan can happily function with that the the test of a deeper philosophy of a truer philosophy is that it can easily understand the more less the less advanced the more primitive philosophies the more primitive or less advanced philosophies cannot understand the deeper philosophy see from you as a phd in mathematics or physics you can understand what the little kid is studying in grade 5 or grade 6 science you understand very well but that kid doesn't understand you that doesn't matte mean that you have to say that everything is wrong in your textbook not at all under a certain perspective it's right and the kid has to learn that way so when you talk with the kid and you teach physics and mathematics to the kid at grade 5 or grade 6 level you behave accordingly you don't look at it from the perspective of relativistic physics or from super string theory no okay sambrithya without compromising your advaithic foundation you can happily interact with so many people are misled by this you know when i say i'm so happy to learn kashmiri shaivism madhyamaka buddhism nevada vignabada many different theories of western philosophy and all i can understand and i can appreciate it even use it but that people are misled not that i agree with it not at all not at all it's only at a certain level if you really want to investigate it the whole thing will fall apart apply something like say gordo pardo's analysis just disappears none of those philosophies as he says um or paratantra they are all part of samrita satyam transactional reality they have their use i'm not saying they do not have their use if mind is for example they end with this mind is disturbing me then what will help me patanjali yoga will help you certainly mindfulness meditation will help you see god brother will say you have taken the mind as real you have taken the disturbances are real and you have set up a project for removing disturbances real disturbances from a real mind all right then go to patanjapatanjali yoga or mindfulness meditation and they will help at that particular stage but one thing you will notice is there is no final satisfaction in any of those systems final liberating satisfaction comes from this and this alone so i am sharing with you my agreement with gowda pada okay last observations comments before we end there are two questions in chat yes yes so rodriguez moment of realization in that instant are the indriya shut down or working to their full potential in the moment of realization if it you're talking about samadhi patanjali yoga and all at that time everything has to be shut down you have to be sitting still ashtanga yoga subragyath you have to be sitting still even the breath is in kumbhaka and sense organs are not outward mind is shut down so that is yogic in advaithic realization all of it could be working practical purposes you have to focus for a while on advertising teaching at that time you can't have mind thinking of all things eyes and ears seeing different things and the mind scattered that will not work the moment of focus is necessary then that sounds like takur's began a very big topic no it takes vikana is actually a little deeper than this notice godapadha has a slightly snarky attitude he will keep saying that they are all transactional reality they are all viva harika sambriti satyam so fine investigate deeper i agree with you at that level investigate deeper all of this disappears but taku does not do that all right uh peter fell swamiji if the reality is eternal and unattached four point seven two is gonna put an attack there's something that's permanent and unattached is this a break with the manduk madhyamaka position of no position ah you have to wait for four point seven four where he will say whatever i have taught you till now about thuriya now it's the time to let it go pure being sat no all pervading reality survivor brahman no eternal reality no all of that is going to come very shocking but very logical us if you think about it he will use the madhyamaka approach approach i'm saying that for example um the turia is beyond cause and effect which means causality is an appearance there's no real causality now he will ask in number 74 if there is no real causality what's the point of talking about beyond cause and effect is not there so why talk about it being there once you have understood once you have removed the error of causality now will you say define turia as being that which is beyond causality but now all the problem of causality is over suppose we have gone through all this now why use that definition let go of it if you say all pervading brahman but you are accepting all then only you're saying all pervading brahman that you're accepting space saying all pervading brahma eternal reality you're accepting time and then you're saying eternal reality you are a non-dual even advaita there is no second thing you are accepting that there could be other things then with respect to that you are saying they are not different from brahman so they are brahman is non-dual but others are not there at all where is the duality which you are you are distinguishing brahman from so he will go into that level of analysis which is very madhyamaka but i will let me not talk about it now that's why i kept it for tomorrow it's you have to approach it with a fresh mind it can be very shocking but then you will see it's very logical also it's just the logical next step to take take yeah i think at that point sushmaji hold on to your question sushma birdlia hold on to a question we'll have it we'll deal with it tomorrow we are well gone well over time