Video 62

63. Mandukya Upanishad | Chapter 4 Karika 55-60

started the recording [Music] so [Music] so we are studying the fourth chapter of the mandukya the alata shanti prakaranam which is if you translate it it translates into quenching the firebrand and now we know why the the name has been given why this strange name has been given to the chapter quenching the fire brand because the firebrand example has now come we saw how gorapada takes up this firebrand example that if you take a firebrand it's just like a you know like a stick with a flaming tip like a torch or something and you wave it around you'll get various patterns you know like you see circles you don't just see a tip you see as like a circle you see like a wave a zigzag so rejuv means straight line wakara means zigzag patterns lots of lots of patterns are generated if you wave like this this firebrand in a in darkness in a dark room maybe or uh in the evening outside um and we realize so i told you the characteristics of the firebrand it is luminous you it reveals itself you don't need another firebrand to see a firebrand reveals itself and it reveals other things like light or fire it reveals other things luminous just like that brahman our consciousness is also luminous it is self-aware and aware of everything else second is the firebrand is um [Music] it itself appears as the um the patterns you see at first the language of cause and effect is used that the firebrand produces the patterns but gaurapatha soon tells us that actually nothing has really happened it's the fireband is still the firebrand and there is no new thing called a pattern it just looks like circles and waves and lines um and also the fire the fire brand itself is the reality and the uh patterns are dependent in the language of vedanta firebrand is the truth and the patterns are appearances firebrand satyam pattern mithya in the same way consciousness appears as a multiplicity though it is one it appears oh there's another point the firebrand is one patterns are many patterns are many and changing and impermanent the fat brand is one unchanging and permanent with respect to the patterns similarly consciousness is one but it appears as many which are always changing and impermanent but the consciousness is one unchanging and permanent so these are the uh the um similarities also the firebrand is the reality which appears as different patterns abhasa alata means the fire brand and sanskrit for appearances is patterns is abhasa similarly consciousness is one the turiya but it appears as many and it is the reality which appears as the false appearances of the world of all beings and this this world so this is the example now what do you do with this just as you notice that all this multiplicity of patterns is nothing but the one fire brand in the same way we are invited to notice the multiplicity that we experience in our waking lives in our dream lives and in a potential form in deep sleep the same multiplicity is there in the deep sleep but in a potential form so that multiplicity is actually one consciousness the thorium from the perspective of the fire brand uh the patterns are it's non-dual there's no second reality apart from the fire brand from the perspective of thorium it is non-dual because there is all that appears the multiplicity is not actually a second so you realize the non-dual nature of consciousness and i am that consciousness well so firebrand is just an example he's not saying that you are a firebrand you are you are consciousness which is non-dual and the entire universe is your appearance um here he uses the word spanda vibration of consciousness which is a strange word to use in advaita but it's a it's very common in kashmir shaivism yesterday i think uh rakesh kalji uh made a comment that it says it feels strange to use something that is generated in time to negate something that's generated in space so thinking about that and i got it what you meant i think that's what he meant the patterns in the firebrand are not projected at once it is when you see the movement of the fire brand over time that you begin to see circles and so so yes that's a very interesting insight the firebrand example is a is a kind of projection through time whereas a movie example the examples we use in vedanta movie example movie example is we use now they didn't use at that time the example of a snake in the rope or mirage they're basically appearances in space ah you see the point of the the question whereas here also one thing in the fire brand example also one thing is appearing as many but only over time and not in a particular space regardless notice from the point of consciousness it's still the same because both time and space are also projected by consciousness so consciousness is not that consciousness there is space and consciousness now appears as many or there is time and consciousness like a firebrand appears as many no both time and space and objects all are projected by consciousness so it's good to use a time based example but which is also why it's a favorite example for buddhists which example the firebrand example it's a favorite example for viganavada buddhists remember they are the ones who said it's flashes of consciousness a series of flashes of consciousness and that's why they love this firebrand example alata example again one more reason to accuse godapadha of being buddhistic okay now let us go on 55 verse number number 55 is let me use the online translation can be run yes cause and effect spring into being so long as there is a mental preoccupation with cause and effect there is no origination of cause and effect when the engrossment with cause and effect becomes attenuated okay behind the dry philosophical language what gowdapada is saying is not at all very different from the standard advaita that we learn notice swami vivekananda the thing which i quote many times about the law of karma good good bad bad and none escape the law so punya leads to sukha good leads to good means punya means merit leads to the pleasant pleasant is sukha and papa papa means sin or demerit it leads to dukkha which means the unpleasant or the suffering and this is what swami vivekananda says good good bad bad and non-escaped allah we are all trapped in this law this is exactly what god part is saying here he's not as radical as he seems at first glance you know right now see what is he saying as long as you have this paradigm that there is heitu karma pala the result of karma good good bad bad till that and so long will you be in the cycle of karma as long as you have this paradigm of cause and effect so long will you be trapped in the cycle of karma um swami vivekananda goes on uh no one who who wears a farm um what are the exact lines those who wear the form they wear the chain two yes so the form means name and form this body it is produced by past karma it's a it's a um it is part of my past karma has become the prarabdha karma which has produced this particular body and the events of this life so if you are in a body and we are all in a body embodied so all the major events big good and bad what are happening to us and what have happened to us and what will happen to us in this life are being generated by prada the karma that is the chain in another place one vivekananda says that the slave is slave cast or whipped that you are still bound by karma he says chains though of gold are not less strong to bind even if you have good karma you have a very pleasant life things are going very well still you are bound so this is called bondage and this gora patha says haitu veisha this paradigm of cause and effect karma and its results but then swami vivekananda says far beyond is atman ever free no thou art doubt that sannyasi board say om far beyond is atma never free but far beyond where is it far beyond in space no atman means self is you know what self is usually capitalist am i can i be that capitalist self it's you when you say atman self with a capital s it just means you so when you say you are far beyond far beyond what far beyond this realm of ignorance not physically separated you are right there it's not separated by time it's not that after a long time you will be beyond karma no right now you are there you are beyond karma right now the self the atman which is beyond karma is right here right now and it's you so why am i trapped it says know thou art that swamiji says why am i you have to know that you are that self we don't know it we just we take it that we are this body and mind god or father will have more to say what happens when you know it then he is god if you read god along with swamiji the paradigm of cause and effect the paradigm of karma that becomes attenuated that begins to loosen you begin to see i am not caught up by this this is part of the movie which is projected this is these are the patterns projected by the fire brand and i am the fire brand neither the cause not the effect are real they are my own projections i transcend them i am not something trapped in them so because of my past karma bad karma now a lion is chasing me i'm referring to my dream and because of my good karma i was saved from being eaten by the lion so this is my if this is my idea i'm still trapped within karma but if i realize the whole thing the lion and the unpleasantness and the eventual escape all of that is an appearance name and form in consciousness which i am these are patterns being were by being generated or appearing because the firebrand is being whirled around they have no substantial reality of their own karma works see karma is not being denied it's not that we're just letting go of the law of karma what we are saying is there is a deeper reality than the law of karma it's like in the movie there is a plot within the movie there's a plot there are reasons why things happen why the hero suffers and all of that is there it's it's a well worked out plot a tragedy or a comedy or whatever but what god is saying you have to realize it's a movie then only you're free from that plot otherwise you're trapped in that plot that's what he's saying here far beyond at the risk of contradicting swami vivekan they'll say not far beyond right here ishopanishad says in the ishopanisha it said it is far and it is close the atman is very far and it's very close closer than the closest how do you reconcile this paradox often vedante is expressed in paradoxical language and you have to understand it it's not just for sounding cool you know like like a quotable quote the real your reality is far beyond you and and it's further than the farthest closer than the closest um no it has a clear meaning one sadhu once said this was in haridwar very nice i'll tell you in the original thing in hindi and translate he says oswami when two absolutely contradictory teachings are understood are reconciled and understood together as being perfectly reasonable then you will understand advaitha so it's further than the furthest closer than the closest how shankaracharya comments there in the ishwa punished for those who do not know that i am this pure consciousness for them it seems to be further than the furthest what pure consciousness what turi i have no idea what are we talking about what brahmana and all of this for those who know it's the most obvious thing most obvious thing you know advaita something like the teachings of gowdapadha in mandukya if you approach it the first it seems to be something you know like even people first approach it oh it's something to do with religion it's something religious as you come closer it seems to be um mystical religious yes but it's something that you have to experience for yourself by some esoteric practice some extraordinary experience will come to you most people think like that and then you will be the turia even closer if you understand no it's a it's it's a it's a spiritual philosophy it's step by step guides you based on your experience takes you by the hand step by step and shows you something gives you an insight into your present reality a religion based on faith not an extraordinary mystical experience right now right here there is something which we don't have an insight into and and this shows you that that gives you that insight and you see oh that's what it is and when you really really understand it when you really got it it's no longer a religion it's no longer mystical experiences no longer even even philosophical insight it's just an accurate description of the enlightened person's experience that's just the way it seems to so the enlightened person if you it's like saying here's a book if you give a statement here is a book exactly like that to the enlightened person if you say you are the turian neither the inner consciousness nor the outward nor the awake i mean not the waker not the dreamer not the deep sleeper beyond sight smell touch um so the seventh mantra prapancho pashamam shivam advaitham the cessation of the universe full of all auspiciousness non-dual forever beyond suffering so all that seems to be the just the very accurate description of exactly what's what is what the enlightened person is experiencing effortlessly all the time all the time okay that's just by the way um i think did i get this ah distracted so what i was saying is once one gets an insight into this reality one one realizes one is beyond uh karma so the karma still works in the manifested universe the movie is still appearing but you realize the movie as a movie now a question may be asked so if you are in the paradigm of karma what is the harm i am not asking shankaracharya is asking in the commentary to link it with the next verse next karika what is the harm if we are in the paradigm of karma 56 so what's the harm if you are in the karma paradigm if you are in the paradigm of cause and effect as long as there is a mental preoccupation with causality so long does samsara continue when the engrossment with causality is exhausted one does not attain samsara or one is not trapped in samsara gambiranji translates as a worldly state i just said some sar which is go to go to part of this original word um so people have questions yes do keep do raise your hands or write down the question in the chat and the way we will do it today is i will keep on speaking for a little while more a couple of more verses then i'll stop and i'll discuss it and these are important verses and then i'll start again and speak and take up a few more verses then stop and finally conclude with the remaining questions and observations so yes what did god part of say what is the harm if you are in in cause and effect the harm is samsara you say all right samsara is fine no it is not samsara is not fine if you're in a dream samsara there is a lion chasing you will you wake up from that oh this is all right now no kovid 19 is chasing you now here in in a waking state samsara you're always being chased around there's always sorrow even if you don't know the wise know that there is sorrow i forgotten the original sanskrit which says for those who are unwise for ordinary mortals there is pleasure and pain in life for those who are discerning everything is pain for those who are discerning the so that is the buddhistic approach those who are discerning those who look upon life carefully everything is painful albert camus i think a famous french existentialist so the first very famous first sentence of that book is the only important philosophical question is why should i not commit suicide right now he says you see any sensitive thinking person who is not crude who is who thinks and understands what the what life is all about so there that question comes up that that's a very important see these persons they feel the deep sorrow of life and therefore so this is only solution is not in the world solution is in spiritual life whether it through devotion or through gyana whichever way the only real solution lies in enlightenment in in god realization in devotion knowledge so what happens he says when you are trapped in samsara what happens is i the very fact is why do we have this paradigm of karma why do we experience samsara think back to that example why did i experience africa and that lion and being chased by the lion and the terror and all of that the reason is the real reason is that sleep cut me off from the reality of my waking state if the reality is somehow hidden if we are ignorant about our reality then what happens is the possibility of error is there when you don't know it's a rope then there's a possibility of mistaking it for a snake when you don't know that it's a mirage then it's the possibility of mistaking it for real water if you know it's a mirage already even if you see it you will not mistake it if you know if you are awake lucid dreaming then when you go into the dream i may even see africa in the lion again but i will not be mistaken at all when you see a movie very vivid and very realistic you know it's a movie so you are actually there is no error there we will not be trapped in it but when we do not know that we are the theory of then what happens to you the consciousness who are actually the theory what is presented to you body mind already preconditioned by many lives and a world in front of you mixture of good and bad it is very natural then this very consciousness not knowing its real nature history takes itself to be this body mind what is the name in mandukya vishwa i am this waking person and then a particular name will come mr so and so or mrs swanson swami's one so so this is the and then the whole set of problems friends relatives um responsibilities and a life story all of it not real all of it is taken on oneself because we do not know the real self which is studio then what happens the moment you take yourself to be this body mind waking state i am this body mind immediately one becomes knower doer and experiencer these are inadequate terms for pramata pramata means the knower how am i know through this mind through this body i see i hear i smell i taste i touch i feel see what's wrong that's very nice but the whole thing is wrong because what do i see africa then lion the roar of the lion now you see you are seeing but all of it first of all there is no lion there there is no africa there there is actually no no body no not even eyes whole thing the consciousness itself is channeled through this and the seeing itself is also not not nothing wrong in it it's only when you do not know yourself as the theorem then when you see yourself you take this to be the only reality the deeper level of this reality that i am that unchanging awareness immortal awareness that is not there that that's completely hidden so i become my identities i am the one i see hear smell taste touch then i see that i have so many limitations i must get food and clothing and shelter and security lines may come at any time so i need to protect myself and there are things to be done it's an imperfect life i need to improve it so improve it means my experience has to be improved it must be a more comfortable experience more secure experience more pleasant experience i must have the things to eat which i like i must have the things to see which i want to see hear smell taste touch all of that i want to gather why my experience must be better it's unpleasant now it's not good now it has to be improved this is called bhoga i want better bhoga to have this better book a better set of experiences i become the consciousness becomes qatar the doer once i engage in action karma comes so you see the chain from ignorance avidya ignorance comes desire kaaba because in between what is there a purnatwa a lack of fulfillment i do not know myself as the ever fulfilled thorium pure consciousness what do i know myself as the never fulfilled waker so this person who is never fulfilled they ever fulfilled and now looks upon itself as the never fulfilled and now becomes a doer with the body and mind from avidya comes kama comes from karma comes karma good and bad that karma generates results and now you have the chain you have none escape the law and this is what he says is samsara you say what is wrong with that you experience it you see what is wrong with that limitation we always have the feeling i will be fulfilled and it's this is an intimation of our real nature which is ever fulfilled but we are trying it out in a wrong way we are using this samsara to fulfill ourselves will never work you go from a poorer state to a better state and then back to a worst state again and again to a better state up and down it goes now individual level so social level also until you realize that uh this is an appearance and samsara is not meant for that you're ever fulfilled person somebody was asking so if you are enlightened if you know yourself as turya then samsara is useless a person would not have any use for samsara and what would such a person do in samsara anyway in this world so i'm vivekananda says that such persons are fit to live such persons are fit to live we wander in the universe wander around like hungry ghosts this is a term used by buddhism like hungry ghosts always trying to eat in this world through all our senses never satisfied whereas those ever satisfied souls when they live in some in samsara they live a life of peace and sweetness and giving and tranquility in purity just look at i mean quite beyond all these dry philosophical things look at the lives of people you consider to be saints whether devotional or in the path of knowledge they are the ones who are fit to live in this world that's why vivekananda says so this is samsara we are trapped in samsara look at the verse here what does he say as long as you're caught in cause and effect karma good good and bad samsara such to that extent is the spread of samsara once you come out of this then you will be free of samsara there will be no more sansara for you so how does this samsara come and how do you get out of it verse number 57 karika number 57. [Music] [Music] another beautiful verse everything seems to be born because of that empirical outlook therefore there is nothing that is eternal from the standpoint of reality everything is the birthless self therefore there is no such thing as annihilation if you read it like that it sounds very confusing and very dry and abstract but it's something very living and beautiful why does this happen why do i see samsara if i'm pure consciousness why is there even waking dreaming deep sleep why are there physical bodies subtle bodies why is there karma why is all this happening what is the reason the real reason is there's no reason because there's no causal link between turia and waking dreaming and deep sleep but anyway he answers samritya samvritti is an interesting term it's not a term which was which remained popular in vedanta though it is there at the very root of vedanta at at gorapath's level in god of pakistan it's a buddhistic term again you have to go back to nagarjuna about 500 years 600 years before governor pada nagarjuna said the buddha taught two truths two truths have been taught by the buddha satyam the truth that is absolute and the truth that is relative is relative relative truth and absolute truth so according to nagarjuna the four noble truths of buddhism buddha himself and things like dependent origination all those things in buddhism all those things are relative truth including buddha including buddhism including nirvana all of those are relative truths and only by holding on to these relative truths one can go to the or realize the ultimate truth or the absolute truth which cannot be described in language so he says without taking refuge in samriti in the samrity level of truth one never attains to the absolute level of truth that is all nagarjuna five hundred years before god apart now notice godapadha is using the same term samriti why does samsara appear because of samriti he says and shankaracharya helps us out here what is samgriti he says and the by ignorance of your nature estherium that veritorium appears as wakar and waker's world and then you enter into transactions in this world you know you go around a job you have families you do good and bad things all of that is called loka bahar one point i want to mention here see the interesting transition between samriti and viva hara later on in advaita vedanta what were the terms the i the term samrita satyam disappeared but it it was replaced by vebharika satyam and here you see the transition when gauravadi uses the term samrithi shankaracharya comments explains it as lokavahara the transactions of our our day-to-day life and why do we engage in those transactions because of ignorance ignorance of what our real nature as thuriya sambrithya because of samritti um let me see because of sambriti jayate sarvam all is born remember now born within quotes the world and people and life what is going on here creation preservation destruction so all of this appears to be no more than the patterns of the fair brand this entire universe of appearances was it actually true that africa was created and the lion was born and then it grew up and one day saw sarvapriyan the walking in the plains of africa and decided to chase him no nothing was born there it's an appearance of the mind of server priyanka which is under sleep and dreaming that's all it is that's the real truth about it but it still appears and it it seems very tangible and very real so he says uh because of samriti all of this appears and one clue gives us how do we know all this is unreal and effect of ignorance he says nothing here is eternal everything in this world is passing it comes and goes whatever is born will die um uh from the bhagavad gita i remember many many years ago in the ashram in yoga there was a new brahmachary and my i got the news that my father had passed away so you know you have certain rituals you have to observe uh so you go about barefoot and eat only once in a day and all of that i was doing now there was this uh if you do it for 13 days or 14 days something like that is there um so there was there was this monk who was a very strict non-dualist um vidyadhar maharaja and he used to stutter a little and he was always in his own mood as a strict advaithin he noticed however that this young boy this new brahmachary is walking around like this barefoot and he's not you're not supposed to shave so they're not shaving and all of that so he asked me i still remember he has passed away now so he asked me a little stutter ah he knew bengali though he was marathi though he asked me what happened they're like oh what what's wrong i said swami i got the news that my father has passed and so i'm observing these things that so that um of the typical rituals you have to observe and his only comment was if you're born you have to die it sounds very brusque but i smiled when i heard it he just listened carefully and he said in bengali with his stutter john malay and then he walked off if you are born you will die and it's he put it in such a way it sounded like the most natural thing in the world so jaatas nothing is eternal here people die and we will one day ourselves passive and there's nothing terrible about that everything in the universe including from the tiniest insect to the stars they die they come to everything comes to an end and begins all over again as long as you do not you are not liberated you go through this cycle nobody really dies also i mean from an adversary perspective only the um body dies today i think in the yoga class swami pitamaranji's quoted from mahabharata so um where sanat kumara the rishi the young you know ever young rishi he comes and drita rashtra the blind king asks him questions says oh sage what is death and sanat kumara dismisses that thing that he says death is nothing it's just a change of the body that's not real death you know one body goes you're still there and you have another life but he says real death is inadvertence mistake error brahmadov ramada means error where does error come from error comes from ignorance and here is not speaking of just ordinary errors he's talking about the fundamental error of our lives thinking ourselves to be this limited body and mind that's why we are trapped in samsara so he says there is a clue that this is all false because nothing is eternal here and we have discussed these things earlier if something is born and something dies it means it has gained existence and lost existence it means existence is not intrinsic to that entity it's not the very nature of that entity so if it's the very nature of that entity it will be immortal it will not gain existence and lose existence there is only one such thing which is existence itself sat or brahman or thorium everything else gains existence and loses existence is born and dies is produced and is destroyed and that is samsara he says nasty sashwatam how does one get out of it by what meditation what prayer what technology how does one get out of it in silicon valley they are trying to huge amounts are being invested by billionaires they have realized they have become very spiritual inside this there that we have got billions now but they're all going to die so what's the next thing to do how to become immortal immortal in the body so they are trying to find out ways to stop aging and stop dying so whether it is immortality in the body or in some way how does one get out of samsara how does one get out of death how does one attain to eternity um god of other says means realization of the truth you change your paradigm from the waker dreamer deep sleeper to deteriorate and how do you know that only by knowledge only by realization you ask how do i get that realization tell me quick sravana manana needed dhyasana you have to keep coming to class whether it is zoom or actual physical class whatever it is and then thinking about it until it becomes clear and flashes oh this is what i am so will all this c is then no yes and no yes you will realize yourself as immortal no the movie will still continue but you are safe from it now you realize that you it's not you're safe from the lion you don't have to do anything if i ask in the dream how do i escape this lion which is chasing me by running faster or by climbing a tree you see there's a worldly means or by taking refuge in god who will save me from the lion that's the other world you mean religious means god or father says realize what you are what do what what am i the moment i snap out of it and sit up in my bed the whole problem is solved the only difference be careful here the only difference is in the dream example the dream disappears and you set up the whole thing is gone there is no more of the dream now it's replaced by the waking state but in the case of turiyam and samsara when you realize your thorium the waking state will continue it will still appear like this if you have eyes you will see if you have ears you will hear you will smell taste touch think all of those things will continue but you realize all of them are appearances of one consciousness which you are there's nothing outside you it is all within you you will be saved from dukkha you see there is another saying in famous saying manusmithi sarvam paravasham dukkham sarvam atma vasham sukham that everything that depends on others where others have control over you that's a source of sorrow for you everything that is under you in your control that will be that is peace and happiness for you this is in brief the definition of sorrow and happiness now notice if you are the waker there is a lot that's not in your control almost the entirety of the universe other people are certainly not in your control what they are doing and who are who's going to listen to your own body is not in your control when is it healthy when it is sick your own mind is not under your control all of those according to manu are now sources of sorrow for you the world is a source of sorrow for you other people become source potential source of sorrow for you your own body becomes potential source of sorrow for you your own mind most of all becomes potential source of sorrow for you but when you're tourium when you are the firebrand all the patterns are nothing but you everything in this universe as thorium waker and waker's universe dreamer and dreamers universe and deep sleepers potential universe the whole thing is appearing to you the consciousness one in you the consciousness to and nothing but you the consciousness three to whom is this world appearing to consciousness who is that consciousness you that is one where is it is it a separate world and you are consciousness separate like light and an object no it is in you the consciousness there is no proof of anything outside and if it is in you the consciousness what is this world made of nothing but you the consciousness and therefore atma vasham the whole thing is now absorbed into it you have eaten up the entire universe the entire universe is nothing but you every person good and bad friend and foe so called they are all you and nothing but you servam atma vasham sukham then everything is sukkah everything is joy everything is peace let me see um then what happens and there is no no death then you have overcome death this is real immortality once you have sadhbaha there is this paradigm of thuria so the paradigm of samsara or karma and paradigm of turia once you have the turia paradigm sadda bhava there is no more death just one more point here again i am thinking in terms of buddhism in buddhism when you ask what is the ultimate truth here it is the easily you can say oh turiyam brahman atman so many words for it buddhism they are very antsy about giving a term to it they will tell you it is neither eternal nor is is is it uh annihilation uh shashvata no uh annihilation ucheda no so here notice godopathy has said there is no eternity possible in worldly things he just said this in the waking dreaming nothing is eternal so no not shashvata and when you realize the turia now there's no annihilation for you but notice he could have said just the opposite worldly things are always subject to destruction and thuriya is eternal but he does not use that term he uses terms which are perfectly compatible with the buddhistic terminology according to buddhism it is beyond eternalism and beyond annihilation so the world is that which is in annihilation but it is not eternal and thuriya is that which is eternal but not uh it's not subject to annihilation anyway i just wanted to mention that one more verse and then we will take the questions 58 dharma jayanti [Music] but still why oh let me read the translation sorry the entities that are born thus are not born in reality their birth is that of a thing through maya or magic and that maya again has no reality so why at all waking dreaming and deep sleep are appearing thuriya could well just be turia somerset mom the english novelist once went to india and he visited ramana maharshi also so he discusses vedanta in one place that brahman created the universe and then in his dry humor he writes that i felt brahman could have let well enough alone shouldn't have created this universe so why does all this universe appear at all we have said ignorance now he's giving a little more shape to that answer that actually nothing is created dharma means this consciousness which is appearing as jews they are not really born nor is the universe born in reality so their seeming birth and all this going on this seeming universe birth existence death it is all due to maya here maya is used in the sense of magic it's not the fully developed theory of maya which you come across in shankara vedanta and post shankara vedanta it's just you can see it emerging so here is using it alternately for for magic or just for an illusory appearance so it is born as if in you think you see things being born in magic shows i think god brother must have seen lots of magic shows he often uses this example similarly things in the world are born because of maya now immediately there will be a question if there is maya hey wait a minute you just said turi or brahman is the only thing non-dual now you've introduced one more thing maya and he immediately anticipates that question and he answers maya sana vidyate very important indication of what maya is the future theory of maya quickly takes this up what is maya ya ya masamaya that which is not maya has no independent existence brahman alone exists because of maya the world appears and maya also has no independent existence maya is also maya is false so is the product of maya false so this is your escaping the question no not really he will give an example let's read the next verse and we'll stop he'll give an example of how this works 59 yatamaya bijat as from a magical seed grows as sprout equally illusory see maya is used as magic as from a magical seed grows a sprout equally illusory it being neither eternal nor destructible so just so is the logic of birth and death applicable in the case of objects think about it in the dream suppose my dream where suppose there is a seed and from that one tree has come now the tree has been produced from a seed which is in the dream the tree is a dream tree that it has no existence apart from it apart from my dream it was just dreamt up what about the seed will you say the cause of the tree the seed is something real in the waking state there was a seed and then only in the dream state a tree came up not at all the dream tree will come up from a seed in the dream the dream seed produces a dream tree it is a dream clay which will produce a dream part it is a dream gold which will produce three monuments so the cause and the effect maya and its products both must be of the same level of reality brahman is paramarthikam the absolute and maya and its products are transactional or in godhapath's terms samriti what's the point talking about maya does not make it dualistic it will become dualistic only if there is a second thing apart from brahman maya is not a thing maya is not a substance mind is not a reality of the nature of brahman i've often said this the first thing we remember we used to memorize when we are vedanta students from vedanta sahara definition of reality and andrea what is real what is unreal was reality is non-dual satchit ananda brahman brahman which is existence consciousness bliss and non-dual is the reality again all the incentive universe starting from again or maya from maya downwards everything is not real is an appearance so non-duality is preserved okay as promised and stop now giant can you tell us who's raised the hands maharaj yesterday you were talking about the theory of non-origination he said brahman has absolutely nothing to do with the universe yes that's what you said yes uh i was thinking of uh the chant that we do every after every class originally yes yes today and as i understand that it says this flows out of that yes this the universe flows out of that problem now this you know precedes the shankara by many millennials millennia yes but the shankara or is this theory advantage theory contradicting this or are these ideas consistent they're consistent what gordha padha would do it would say is that the universe emerges from brahman is established in brahman and disappears back into brahman this is a provisional teaching given to those who for whom it's too incredible to think that there's no universe it's only all brahmana but ultimately you must come you must let go of this emerging from and going back into that's causation brahman actually does not cause and universe to come into being brahman actually does not destroy the universe which has come into being brahman alone was is and will be now if you look at the look at what you are chanting this is infinite or the whole and that is also infinite from the infinite has from that infinite has come this infinite purnas when you recognize or take the infinite in this you recognize that infinite in this purname the infinite alone exists if you consider what is being said here it's exactly what god is saying this is infinite that is infinite that means brahman the ultimate source and this means what we are experiencing now now are there two infinites no then what is the relationship between this and that he says this has come from that it arises from that all right this seems to be like a theory of creation and dualistic religions immediate dualistic vedantic philosophies immediately grab this but notice what's said next purunastia purnama by accepting or taking or or finding the infinity in this that infinity in this or finding the infinity in infinity see we have access only to this infinity that means this world that's what we have access to here itself you have to discover that infinity turia when you discover that infinity here infinity alone exists nothing else is left over thuriam alone remains which means what you thought of as a separate world which you intermediate thought of as having come from that from god that has no no substance of its own the only substance is that of god or brahmana thorium that was is and will be in between see the the what we call as this world it appears to be a substantial reality and the substantial reality of this world is being denied in this uh this shanti mantra it seems like a lot of fancy footwork you might but you have to think what it means by not just consider a simple thing if you gain enlightenment and freedom by knowledge moksha by knowledge what does this mean about bondage what kind of bondage is it that is overcome by knowledge if you are tired by a real rope and somebody comes and unties you we see you we have been physically bound and you are physically released no amount of thinking will release you there but if knowing something sets you free what does that tell you about the nature of your bondage what were you bound by then what do you think the world whether it's real or a dream even a dream has its own reality wait knowledge sets you free even in the bible the truth shall set you free if you uh yeah they know that the truth shall but if you literally take it that's what advice is claiming if you take it seriously when can the truth set you free the truth by itself it means you are already free you just somehow don't know it then that's the direct interpretation without any footwork the truth sets you free directly it's like the man who thought that the tenth man their friend was dead and the truth set him free from that sorrow whereas the truth will set you free if you go to the dualistic religions they will have to do a lot of supplement yes you have to know the truth then you have to practice it you have to meditate you have to worship you have to surrender you have to love god and then god will come and set you free and maybe come in a chariot and take you to heaven or if it's more sophisticated god by the grace of god the bonds of your karma will be will be destroyed and you will realize your true divine nature and you will merge with god something some kind of action is going on there there's something more to be done after knowing the truth there but here in advaita the truth will set you free i think it's absolutely direct except that to be qualified to know that truth you have to go through all those stages yes that is true that is still still there otherwise it won't work it will just remain as uh very clever you know you said clever philosophy and clever footwork yeah but we're stuck with the idea that there is this empirical universe the alpha haruka and we're left without an explanation for you know where it comes from yeah this so this is what we have to go through this again and again that's why shank their godup are they spending so many verses on denying exactly this he says there is no answer to this question and the question doesn't even make sense it seems to make tremendous sense to us and that's why all those explanations are given that there is an ultimate reality which creates this reality and the whole point is to somehow bring you in touch with the spirit and call it god or your inner spirit spirit the atman whatever it is that's what liberates you and all these explanations are necessary because this world is all that we have and if you talk about the spirit god brahman then naturally the question comes how is it related to my world so the first and easiest answer is that one created this what you see that one has created this is the master of everything here everything here depends on that one and from an advertising perspective these are not wrong but they are not they don't go far enough i like the idea that it's all o'learn this is god's play he enjoys the process true the answer is leela it's a kind of extraordinary divine aesthetic enjoyment like you would once you realize it's a movie would you shut down the movie and walk away oh it's just a movie no now you really enjoy it yeah right even the tragedy you enjoy it yes but not as long as you are trapped in it yes who else is asking a question giant you are next if according to the verses 54 and 55 a 54 55 what what was said in 54 55 cause and effect as long as because effect will be there yes so as long as you're trapped but dualist does not cause and effect ah dualist is a person who is trapped in cause and effect who takes cause and effect to be real but who is a dualist who feels that there is a god apart from who is beyond cause and effect there is a god there is an ishvara who is separate from from the jeeva jagat that's what dwaita means dualism means that so who has a belief in that and that that ishwara is ishwara beyond karma or under karma i am jiva under karma according to the dualist but ishwar has beyond karma or within karma now ishwara is beyond karma ishwar is the karma karma karmadhisha the lord of karma i am karmadheena i am the under the domain of karma this is what the dualist believes notice even the dualist to get liberated has to catch a hold of something which is beyond cause and effect that that's that means and what is that guard yes the true but god is not not as a cause god is not under the domain of cause and effect god is the lord of lord of causality god is the cause because god is the the creator of the universe but god is not trapped in causality we are trapped in causality by something free of god so the difference between god or father and them will be they accept causality as real and accept something called god which is in charge of causality god or father would say causality is not real then here itself what you are experiencing is free of causality and you are this this reality that's it's a very very direct and radical way of setting you free as i said as i said when you approach vedanta first it seems like a religion if you understand it little better it's telling you that you will have this extraordinary mystical experience seems like mysticism that's when many people stop those who read vedanta if you go even further not even mysticism it's it's actually a philosophical insight into the reality so vivekananda says he calls it philosophy but even further if you go if you really really understand what vedanta is doing it is just describing the natural state of an enlightened person enlightened person would not say it is philosophy or mysticism or religion not at all a latin person would say that's yeah that's right this is exactly it this is what i what what what is absolutely evident to me yeah and on the other hand also he needs the god's grace to to realize this isn't it to realize it see realize means what to overcome obstacles yeah yeah so what is the question so yeah i think i think that's it how did it work for me think about my state i just do you remember the dream i described yeah so how did it work for me i was trapped i tried all worldly means from escaping for from that line i ran for my life and i climbed the tree and the lion chased me and i could that did not work the lion was about to catch me then finally i tried the other worldly means aloo kika which is i i surrendered to suramar krishna to god i am helpless save me god saved me but how did god save me did he kill the lion or something like that no he snapped me out of the way i woke up that's the way god saves you that story about ramana maharshi that a devotee of narayana goes to ramana maharshi and says see this who am i it is interesting but i don't like this approach i am i love narayana is it all right she said yes it's all right godhapath would say alpa dosha it is wrong but not too wrong i'll give you grace marks you'll pass uh then the man said if after death will i will i see will i go to vaikuntha heaven and see narayan will i see god he says yes you will see god oh i'll see god will god see me yes god will see you oh god will see me will god look at me yes and will god speak to me narayana will speak to me yes what will narayana say what will narayana say and ramana murshi said narayana will say to you find out who i am who am i find out who am i so ultimate blessing of god is enlightenment you realize of course this is the advaithic perspective vaishnava devotee or shakthi devotee will but you know for for example and when he's enlightened he sees this you know he has he has a way to deal with the samsara but how does the dualist so he use it as a love leela of god and complete dependence on god it's god's wish dwithin also has a way yeah i see advaita gives strength we say but one swami who's a devotional he said to me well i was a brahmacharya at that time you're saying this but i find devotion gives me strength all right next uh this relates to the somerset mom quote why why couldn't brahman have left well enough yeah and i think it also relates to the point bill was making um saint teresa said something like it appears that god himself is on the journey and sometimes vedanta makes it sound like the creation is a mistake and that we should get out of it as quickly as possible and that it would be better if it had never happened in fact i guess got upon us it as it didn't happen but don't you think there might be some grand cosmic purpose to it and that as as parts of it we are participating in that purpose is there a purpose the grand cosmic purpose the ultimate purpose of all things is to be enlightened to wake up what's the purpose of a dream first of all most important urgent task is to wake up and realize it's a dream after that if you want to continue a lucid dream that's fine but to to be in a dream and not know in a dream is to expose yourself to terrible danger which is some which is the nature of creation and after all if it is true that you are brahmana not know that you are brahmana and be under the delusion that you are a limited being of a bundle of flesh and blood this is an error why would anybody want to be an error be free of that error and then enjoy as many samsaras as you like then it's no longer samsara it's the play of the play of the divine or whatever you call it okay so could you say that a universe in which people have gotten enlightened and woken up um is better in some sense than no universe whatsoever in other words there's value added to creating the universe and having people and get them involved and get enlightened in it i would say what is better in fact what is the best brahman is the best you are the best not the universe take your eye of trying to find good and better in the universe the good and the better and the best are all within you and then then you see this universe as an expression of brahman your real nature and you will find beauty and joy wherever you look but remember it's all your beauty and joy it's not the not uh does not belong to the universe it borrows it from you then it's joy then it's you being brahmana yes you being brahman let's put it this way logically when summerset mom says brahman could have let well enough alone that means all right be pure being pure awareness that does not imply that you have to be multiplicity and divisions and all of this the many why should the many appear even if it's an appearance even if it's false appearance movie why is there a movie at all if you ask consider this logically there are two possibilities brahman can appear or not appear it could appear or something or not appear anything at all and notice both of these are happening throughout our day we have the waking world where this waking universe appears and a dream world in our minds a subtle universe appears dreams and the blankness of deep sleep when nothing appears and at the cosmic level there is creation and this entire universe and resolution where there is nothing except god and maya so the two logical possibilities a universe or no universe these are the two possibilities when you ask the question why is there anything at all why why is the theory or brahman at all there's no question about that because brahman is something necessary it cannot not exist so brahman will be there but why is there a universe at all the two only two possible answers are there could be a universe or there could be no universe and when you look at your experience you see both both are realized but the knowledge will also come in the mind yes it will come in the mind correct the mind is in the realm of maya yes and the transcendence is our goal but can we totally exclude the experience of that which is transcendent i don't understand that see mind is within the realm of maya ignorance is within the realm of maya even the knowledge of brahman brahma-yana that's also within the realm of maya it's also within maya only brahman is not within the realm of maya and that brahman you are what was your question so like our goal is to transcend the suffering of this life but can we totally exclude the experiences which we are having now which we have to transcend totally exclude means can you explain what what are you thinking that there will be no experiences after transcending yeah like we are experiencing this world so this maya can be totally excluded totally you will not exclude anything real see as i have said again and again remember enlightenment does not mean erasing the world enlightenment does not mean wiping out the experience of the universe enlightenment does not mean switching up the movie oh i realize it's a movie let's switch it off no the fact that you realize is the movie now makes you fit to watch the movie for the first time if you are immersed and trapped as a creature in that movie then you would be in terrible danger but once you realize that it's a movie now you can watch it you can watch it as many times as you like you can watch different kinds of movies you can even watch a tragedy and horror movie and all of that would be aesthetic enjoyment for you so in advaita vedanta let's put it this way the way god is speaking it seems like he's trying to erase every bit of the universe it's not at all so he he's just changing our paradigm in fact who tries to erase the universe the yogi tries to erase the universe patanjali yogi nirvikalpa samadhi asam pragyata samadhi he shuts out the experience of the universe to realize this soul within the purusa within that's the goal of patanjali yoga what does advaita vedanta try to do what is godfather telling us one swami put it this way um what a beautiful and powerful saying what does it mean advaita is not for wiping out the experience of the world or monk advaita makes you limitless in this world nirvath means without obstruction without obstruction what happens is our present existence as a jiva is very constricted i am this and not these these are other people and i have to protect this little body and i have to um you know bring all the goods of this world pleasures and money and achievement name and fame and put it at the altar of this little idol of flesh and blood this is my terrible little constricted existence what advaita does is makes you absolutely limitless all this is you i am this infinite awareness suppose i could lucidly dream and understand that africa experience which i had so i am not only this this swami walking on the plains of africa for god knows what reason but i also realize oh then i am the plains of africa also i am the tree also i am the lion also i am the sky also and i am the fun of the lion chasing the poor man all of that i am literally so not imagination imagine living like that in the waking world you are not the waker you are the turia in you the waker and the waker's world appears and now the game begins do you will have no more fear of anybody or anything not even death you will have no more greed that i need these things you will have no anger with anybody everybody is your most beloved because it is you alone in that form think about it so that is it is the most vibrant form of living advaita vedanta not erasing um experience of the world have swami vivekananda says what is the way he says to divinise life itself to see divinity in everybody and everything that you are in that's what godhapath is telling you swami vekandi says so do i have to kick out my husband and wife and children like a brute no he says see god in the husband see god in the wife see god in the children in the friend and the foe in happiness and illness how do you do that that's what god upon one manduk is teaching you um i i wrote this question down because i i want to say it exactly so i don't seem irreverent in any way but anyway the question is about buddhism there is a joke that ends with the punch line it's turtles all the way down in other words questions cannot be answered after a point so stop asking and as we were discussing earlier too there are questions that cannot be answered so should not be asked or are simply wrong or you should move beyond them i mean things like what exactly is maya why the subjective word why making sleeping dreaming whose dream is this waking dream i mean it seems to me that that's sort of the list of questions that cannot be asked but at the same time could you it strikes me that this is the equivalent of turtles in the sense that instead of turtles it's consciousness all the way down it's jagat mithya is the is the answer to any of these questions is that is that correct am i thinking about this yes but see if you push it further along um you know what gorda pada will finally say a dualist says god created the world yeah you know yesterday we were discussing the relationship between consciousness and matter so the materialist scientist says matter created consciousness religions say consciousness or god created matter if you go a little further you come to something like advaita traditional advaitha which says um it is my art as gaurav is saying the universe has never been created it's an appearance there is no there's no talk of real creation there's no real second thing apart from brahman ok that sounds more sophisticated but suppose you push even further there if you ask all right i understand that the universe is an appearance but let us ask why why an appearance the answer will be maya because you can already see the answer coming answer is maya but if you ask why maya then the answer will be as vivekanth also says the question itself is wrong you cannot ask this question but suppose you ask at that point why is the question wrong like an obstinate little five-year-old you keep asking why you can do that why is the question wrong why is it why do you need to stop asking why is this question wrong if you can show me the question is wrong i'll stop asking the question is wrong i have discussed this earlier also notice when you are asking why what are you asking for look at the now we are asking a better question what is look at the structure of the question why why is this question wrong why was there creation maya why is maya there when you are asking why what sort of answer will satisfy you you are asking for a cause why is the grass wet because it rained why did it rain because of the clouds why are there clouds because of evaporation so on because you need you need a cause if you if you are given a satisfactory cause you you think you have found the answer otherwise you'll ask why again right now why can you not all the questions about why are entirely valid in the realm of cause and effect because there's a cause whether you know it or not you're asking for the cause but when you ask this question about maya why maya what is maya the constituents of maya are times are said to be time space and causation kalani now when you ask why maya the question is wrong because it's like asking for example about time what was there before time when you asked what was there before time the question is wrong why because you're assuming time before and after a time words a past tense and present tense and so our future so before and after you see when you ask a question what was before time you are already assuming the presence of time you cannot you're not thinking of a world before time anyway before and after assumes time if you're asking what is outside space you're already assuming space outside inside means space if you ask why causality you're already assuming causality if you're asking why why causality you're asking for a cause of causality you're already assuming causality in that case so a why question can be asked after accepting causality when question can be asked after accepting time where question can be asked after accepting space but if you're saying that thurium is beyond time space and causality there can be no why link between turium and maya think about it i get it i mean it's it's not satisfying emotionally but satisfying logically i find it satisfying logically yes it does yeah i have a slight follow-up question and that is can you say that time space and causality actually exist within consciousness but are revealed only by the prism of maya if you would just like an optical prism reveals the white light to be you know many colors um no they do not exist within consciousness because within consciousness only consciousness exists there is a saying in hindi you understand hindi he says what exists it's impossible to translate into english translators means a pact without the tiniest gap it is existence consciousness bliss or sat pure being a tiniest gap in sat would mean non-existence where they will say in their colloquial indian uttarakhand where is the space for anything other than brahman to exist in brahman if time exists in a gap in brahman a gap in brahmana non-existence time would be non-existent so the only way time or space or causation can exist in brahman is as an appearance you have always said that realization sort of happens in a flash you know when it happens of course but it happens and one gets to know that yes you've realized what it is but is it possible that through the process of herself your perspective of things keeps on changing and while you may not be realized uh well at least one isn't that the way one starts looking at things you really start enjoying life more you don't get you know as seriously affected by things as one was certainly certainly absolutely what is that that is that is a deepening once you have an understanding of this teaching what happens through shravana manan and nidhiddhasana is a deepening of that understanding ultimately realization is nothing more in a path of ghana in the path of knowledge i'm speaking realization is nothing more than the deepening of the knowledge which we are acquiring here right now it may feel to be um i sort of vaguely get what he is saying if you repeat it and you stay with it you will get a clarity oh i i am clear about what is being said here then if you hold on to it you will get conviction oh i am convinced about it now i mean i can see no other way out of it that conviction itself deepens into what might be called realization on the way you will find the bonds of samsara loser in fact upanishad the word upanishad is defined by shankaracharya in his commentary in on qatar upanishad he defines the word upanishad he gives three meanings there one of them is a loosening of the bonds of samsara over time even before enlightenment you breathe easier you are not so much troubled by samsara certainly it is a very good sign thank you yes giant that's it let me just there will be many comments will go to the comments but let me just do just a couple of verses which is very easy actually so the last words which we did was 50 9 60 60. shawshank with regard to all the worthless entities there can be no application of the words eternal and non-eternal no categorical statement can be made with regard to an entity where words do not apply so he says those all all the jivas who are by their very nature thuriam you cannot say whether they are eternal or non-eternal because they are pure consciousness thorium you might say okay i understand why they are not non-eternal you cannot say because bodies are non-eternal they are born and they die the worlds are non-eternal they are born and they die but why is turia you can you can say it is eternal don't you always say nitya maternal actually even for turia you cannot say eternal because be careful here i am not saying the tudya can die it is to remove the error that turiya is within time you say eternal but what it really means there is that it is not within time when you say turya is eternal it does not mean there is a long period of time and all the time turia is hanging around so it's an eternal sort of guy not like that time itself is an appearance in thorium space itself is an appearance in thorium so it's put this way only by accepting time we say brahman is eternal only by accepting space we say brahman is all pervading only by accepting all entities we say brahman is everything sarvam brahmayam but that sarvam we have already accepted that space you have already accepted then server all pervading time you have already accepted then only nithyam but in brahman in itself if you accept time space and all entities you already accepted maya so you are already when you're speaking all pervading eternal and which is everything in this universe you are basically speaking about saguna brahman ishwar or god nirguna brahman is beyond all this so you actually should not even say it is eternal all-pervading all pervading means what pervading what there is nothing else other than the guna brahman all things are everything is god so that was the exact point of dispute between mary hale and swami vivekananda she wrote a poem to swine vivekananda saying that i have understood what you have taught you have taught that all is god and swami vivekananda wrote back saying i am never taught such strange doctrine and he was humorous the old indian story that after hearing entire ramayana the people are going back home and somebody asks so who was sita who is this who is rama you've heard the rama and the whole story and he writes in the poem a very very funny poem if you read it that after hearing in the days of old after hearing ramayana the villagers are going back home and somebody asked pray who was sita weeping and pining similarly you are saying that i have taught you all is god i have never touched a strained doctrine so mary hale was confused she says you've actually said this these are your words you have taught that everything is god so in vivekananda said what i meant was that god only is everything is not this is what god is saying from the perspective of brahman brahman only is everything is not it what all the everything then which continues to appear is an appearance of brahman it's not that there is everything and somehow brahman is full has been filled into those things no only brahman from the perspective of waves thousands of waves from the perspective of water waves are nothing but water though waves continue to appear its not water plus waves ten thousand waves in the ocean plus water so are the ten thousand and one things no no the moment you introduce the term water it is all water and appearing as ten thousand waste you do not have to make the waves disappear let it be water let the waves be there its still water i don't know if that answered the questions yes [Music] so language did i read out the did i read out the verse number 60 yes so there is no question of eternal non-eternal for for brahman it is beyond eternal and non-eternal and he says language cannot be used so there is language does not apply to brahman it is beyond language why is it beyond language it's a full talk in itself i've given a talk i think advaita in the paradox of language why language does not work why language works within maya within the realm of duality language is designed in that way but language cannot directly talk about brahman i don't know if you remember the five things that language can do and none of them apply to brahman all those things are discussed but we discussed it in the seventh mantra also long long time ago two years ago i think now i'll stop here this is a logical point to stop because another different kind of example will be taken up next uh let me look at the chat is anybody there will ask questions now let me look at the chat and a lot of comments here um so bob was saying a few days ago someone asked how does one see a red flower another c is a different color explained it one light pressed in jar multiple holes how is it that all individual beings see the same colored flower if there is not an objective reality we all see and experience the same word some of you are smiling like i know the answer to this one you should we have discussed this in second chapter gora pada using the dream example what is the criterion of reality one objection was very this very question that how is their inter-subjective experience if there is not an objective world we are different people and we all agree here is a flower if the flower is in my mind how is it that you are all seeing it what is in my dream only i see but you don't see it so this this flower that we are all seeing that you all agree in the zoom how many people are there 51 51 50 people agree that we are all seeing the swami how is it possible if it is all in my mind the answer is consider the dream also in the dream also there is inter-subjective experience when you sit down with your friends to have coffee in a cafe in your dream don't your friends also agree in the dream that we are sitting in a cafe and having coffee they the subjects in your dream also have intersubjective agreement we are seeing the same thing it feels normal in your dream if you're drinking coffee with your friend does your friend say where is the coffee there's nothing no he also behaves as if when in the dream when lion was chasing me so did was the lion and i were both able to see the same tree yes the tree i was able to see in my dream and the lion was also able to see there is inter-subjective agreement in the dream also different subjects who are all in the same mind of the dreamer they see the same thing similarly here we are all in the mind of bhirat suppose in the mind of hiranyakargo they're all seeing the same world it's a funny story shankaracharya just a story shankaracharya is walking along a narrow village path it must be kerala in those days and there are many elephants in kerala and somebody shouted a mad elephant is coming run run run and the mad elephant came charging down a maddened elephant and shankaracharya immediately climbed the tree there many coconut trees there so he climbed the tree later on he was going to the king's court the king asked him it's not a real story just a story the king asked him oh shankara i heard that elephant charged at you and then you climbed a tree to save yourself but do you not say that the world is false then why did you try to hear also your body must be false why did you try to save yourself from a false elephant save a false body from a false elephant then shankara replied oh king you know that the elephant is false i note that the elephants it's false but does the elephant know it is false it doesn't know anyway just being funny so inter-subjective experience is not a criterion of reality in dreams also this intersubjective experience cosmic dreamer israeli culture says yes it is in this waking world is a dream for like a dream for hiranyagarva the cosmic dreamer isn't nirvana ultimate reality maybe this reaction to what i said about nagarjuna yes but that is put forward as the ultimate reality by nagarjuna says by the buddha in samriti satyam in the transactional reality it is said that there is something called nirvana which you need to attain now you are in samsara then you will get nirvana this way to start follow the four noble truths eightfold path and then you will attain nirvana and nagarjuna says this is also transactional reality samriti satyam all right somebody ramya said bondage was never there exactly i totally agree visit says we enjoy scary rides and amusement parks exactly as long as you know you're safe does the enlightened person give up learning or learning drop off from him what kind of learning one realizes i am brahmana but it depends on the nature of the mind some are scholarly by nature swami ranganarthanandaji kept on reading and studying till the very end of his life almost till the last day of his life i mean the inspiring stories how he would study he knows the ultimate reality of everything is brahman but the details of this world of maya are science is discovering them you can enjoy science you can enjoy religious text you can enjoy art and literature certainly why causation surely sounds absurd but if you ask why time and space now it is like asking before time when time or where space so can one have conviction without complete understanding no prabhu asks a very good question can one have conviction without complete understanding no no no one may have the feeling of conviction that will be a belief i strongly believe this and that's good also but it's not conviction first learning then clarity then conviction that conviction will develop into realization on that wonderful note let us end omsu let me see all of you take care all of you take care guys happy fourth of july happy fourth of july happy guru purnima day after tomorrow is guru purnima yes take care stay well you