Video 61

62. Mandukya Upanishad | Chapter 4 Mantra 44-54

yes let me start with a yes let me start with a chant ombud [Music] good evening everybody um so in the fourth chapter of the mandukya karaka we were in the section where gowda pada was reiterating the teachings on advaita vedanta and you know he has his own style of teaching advaita vedanta the same advaita brahman alone is reality the world is an appearance and you are none other than brahman same advaita but he teaches it by a critique of causality by a critique of causality um that cause and effect are not ultimately real um so we were discussing this now you know uh before i go on with the with the discussion there is a little diversion but important point i would like to discuss once in a while it's good to discuss this point the point is this that when you come across these teachings of advaita vedanta especially the way gaurav padha puts it it can be disturbing there are different reactions to it or the recording is not on yes thank you for mentioning it shakharan kiranji yes so when we have these different they have different reactions to advaita vedanta one is if you like it the way gaurav pada is teaching it they're good for you some really like it and they enjoy it and they're very happy with it and it's really really a sort of um liberating experience a kind of you feel a freedom an expansion even before long before enlightenment but you you feel is so wonderful there is another reaction that i understand what is being taught but then it's disturbing because then what happens to my devotional practices my belief in god everything that i hold uh true in my spiritual life in my religious life it seems to be under question so that's another reaction another reaction also that i found this like a hammer you know wonderful philosophy i criticize everybody and prove everybody to be false a kind of argumentative vedantic so these are different reactions and people do get disturbed by this kind of a teaching not just if if you feel disturbed don't worry you are not alone all the way back to godhapath's time there were many many people including many great philosophers who felt very disturbed by god father so it is in this perspective that i want to share something with you just yesterday day for yesterday i got a very interesting email from river swami atma who is the swami in charge in houston so he addresses exactly this issue for certain reasons he had written the email to me it's an important caution so with it i took his permission i said i will read out this email before all the students of the mandukya class it's a very timely warning let us say so let me read out the email so i'm reading out swami atma panandiji's email some time i have been getting questions from people across the country and from india asking variations of this i understand that the self is the one reality that all else is appearance even god but then why was i given a mantra and ishta and what do i do with them when the truth is advaita some of them have a clear orientation towards advaitha and so i give them one sort of answer many however are not really oriented that way naturally but have become convinced that it is true and then they feel that the mantra and the ishtar therefore unreal they are then left in confusion and demotivated and for some advaita has become a means for arguing against everything not as a foundation for sadhana it has only a negative effect tending towards nihilism it was the uh glibness of many who profess advaita that i i am reacting against the uh the next element my earliest memory from when i was two years old was not a spiritual experience of course but it was an intimation of advaita and since then that has always called to me whenever i encountered whispers of it in literature or in science i haven't gone far but it is what i love naturally love i am sure from previous births so here is talking about his own love for advaitha but lately i have felt a current of devotion also natural rising within much more than usual and that has made me realize that no one worships a viva harika or transactional god it is reality they are worshiping yes even as they progress on the path of bhakti their conception of god evolves but it is the ideal they are seeking the vision of the ideal that evolves and even those who attain to a non-dualistic state through devotion return with love for god not rejection of god as merely transactional or as an appearance due to ignorance they speak in terms of being lost in the heart of god not of transcending an appearance for one seeking the self advaita is clear and correctly so it puts everything to one side leaving the radiant purity of the non-personal self alone that is its beauty at least to me but that alone does not facilitate devotion it contradicts it no matter how we pass the words and within maya and beyond maya etc that i understand now in a way i never did before is why sri ramakrishna was so deliberate in framing his teachings when he was speaking to those who were devotional by nature all right i am sure you have listened to that carefully this is very appropriate and timely because we were doing the verse number uh 42 and 43 where gaurav says what about those who insist that the world is real why do they insist because it's perceptible upalam bhat and also because of the orderliness of nature the laws of nature and for ethical moral reasons for these two reasons this insist world is real and they want to follow dualistic religion what about them godra pada says that alpa dosha it is wrong but the fault is very small and no harm will come to them because through that they will come to advaita so that is the space that advaita makes for devotion for dualistic religion does not dismiss it but clearly it's little condescending and a little that sort of secondary you are made to feel that i am not good enough for advaitha therefore i have to follow this or i am a coward he says trasantam those who are terrified of advaitha they i'm a coward so that i have to rely on god and therefore until i am ready for advaitha i have to sort of until i am ready to climb to the peak of mount everest i have to stay in base camp so that kind of as swami atwanji says it does not help devotion who wants to be second best best if you are devoting your entire life to a particular practice ishta devata mantra you want that it should be the highest it should not be second that i will practice for some time then something better will come along no no not like that so sri ramakrishna's solution to this was this is an important insight which he has shared there was that that the path of advaitha is independently takes you to realization and don't consider bhakti from the aspect of advaitha take bhakti as an independent real path in itself as the bhakti sastras themselves say so what you are dealing with in bhakti yorishta devata god is real is ultimately real what will happen is that as we progress on the path of bhakti our understanding our realization of god will become deeper and deeper and one did advaithic realization if god wants will god will give us that advaithic realization all right if anybody has anything to say about this this is something to keep in mind just for not for the time being but because many of us have devotional practices i also said something else yes yesterday that through devotional practices by devotion to god one may actually come to this realization and i know of people who have come to this realization advaithic realization through devotion before we proceed any comments or are there many questions let me see oops starting with prabhupada yes hello um yes so i have so many questions now they got all jumbled up especially what you just said but let me address what we just said i think people who are afraid of advaitha i think and i'm talking about a personal side that they love god they don't they for the wrong reason if i love god if i love my guru if i love my mantra then i cannot shake me from my basic principle because i cannot see myself ever detached from my mantra or my guru right so right correct so i don't think as you have a problem with advaita so there is a whole group of people who have no problem with this at all they enjoy these teachings and that's all right and that's good but there are many who can who think about this seriously and have deep questions about it that's why i put up atmaroopanji's except from it then who else is there swamiji yes one question is once again following up on on ramakrishna et cetera ramakrishna and vivekananda were absolutely not strict advaitans in fact ramakrishna has been quoted as saying why should the universe be real it is it is a speculation of the philosophers unreal why should there are unreal yeah so how would the how would the ajax who has effectively refuted buddhism and duality refute the more encompassing began about the philosophy of wouldn't i wouldn't let's take one example swami vivekananda i was just thinking about this in a song of the sannyasin he says about the law of karma that good good bad bad and none escape the law but whosoever wears the form wears the chain too that means if you have a body and mind produced by karma you have to accept the effects of karma but far beyond name and form is atman ever free no thou art that sannyasin so that's the um stands up from swami vivekananda's poem now gurapada seems to be going totally against this because when he says good good and bad bad none escape the law gorupada is saying there is no cause there is no effect well the whole law of karma is an appearance and there is no question of being bound by this so neither is there any ultimately good action producing or bad action producing a body neither is there any any you know like name and form and you are trapped by a chain no but actually they are saying the same thing the key to understanding gowdapadha is that he is always speaking from the absolute standpoint he's always speaking from the paramartica science standpoint in this particular case how will you reconcile swami vivekananda and goddard take the last line of that answer far beyond name and form is atma never free no thou art that sannyasi board now gauravada starts from there so atman is ever free of causality good good bad bad none escape the law does it affect the ottoman no from that one's point of view is there any such law no because ever free those words are very key swami vivekananda is much more kind to us he takes the journey from our end vivekananda does that shankaracharya does that so from our perspective step by step up to that realization god upon the sitting there on the top of the roof and then shouting down to us come take a jump come here forget those ladders and without the ladder how will we climb up there we are the ladder is not not the objective the roof is the objective but the ladder is necessary so that is the uh way to reconcile shankaracharya vivekananda on one hand and godappa the governopath is a very super specialized perspective yes the truth the raw truth only and from from turia perspective he's speaking all the time i will just say in uttarakhand i met this sadhu i was talking about shankaracharya and godappa in fact we are discussing manduka which is a heart favorite for sadhus in uttarakhand so um that sadhu was saying but admiringly about god upon god lower down in the plains pakkad means a person who is a loafer like a you say like like a homeless guy who's wandering and like but high in is a person who is desperate you know that doesn't care anything about the world just wants god realization um then i asked if god is like that then what about shankaracharya that sadhu replied guru haina shankaracharya is the jagadguru teacher of the world so teacher of the world has to take all the students into account the slow ones the medium ones the quick ones all have to be taken into account and taken to the goal yes i have a second second half of this thing in the sense that how would governor father refute a more modern theology let's say for example it's a david uh chalmers uh favorite pan psychism and cosmo psychism especially cosmo psychosome i just read a paper by ayaan maharaja yes yes talking so basically it is similar in the sense as i understand it that there is a universal consciousness yes and it is reflected even in non-sentient beings think about it see but god but don't use godupath as a hammer to knock down the pan psychism or cosmos psychisms but pansexism is a half-baked philosophy it's important because it it is it is needed to break free of materialistic reduction in scientific thing understanding of consciousness but in itself pan cyclism is riddled with uh problems which is why many people reject it many philosophers to be rejected they will not listen but just about every problem with pan psychism can be fixed i mean it's so easy from advertisi perspective it can be fixed of course nobody is going to listen to uh and peculiar philosophy from ancient india they think they have come up with very modern understandings here in uh manhattan 21st century not at all i mean it's crude compared to what we have in god of other godupath is several steps beyond all this but you just think about it what would god father say cosmo psychism you are giving reality to cosmos and then saying consciousness pervades the cosmos as a fundamental reality pensarchism says that but as a fundamental feature of the universe consciousness is there that's the big step that um pansagism takes over thinking of consciousness as an emergent property or something um god apartheid takes consciousness to be fundamental even your cosmos got a father dismisses it where is this cosmos that's the whole discussion we are having yeah all right we'll keep it at that let me just let me deal with one question um because rodrigo got in first where do premonitory dreams brought borrow from to create experiences in the waking if you remember we have had these this question a number of times it's typical when you talk about waking dreaming and deep sleep i wonder if you remember this question the question is you keep it's implied that you are saying dreams are false but sometimes dreams turn out to be true i saw this i met this person and in my dream and next day that person turns up whom i have not seen in years or i saw a relative being ill and next day i receive a phone call that particular relative is ill so the dream turns out to be true how do you say dreams are false have to be a little philosophical little rigorous in thinking what do i mean by dreams are true and what does godot father mean when he says dreams are false we have discussed this more than once so what is the answer to this question and what would be manduki's perspective on this i should outsource this answer now by now anybody willing if if you all right let me just give you the answer in brief premonitions are what by the very definition of the word premonition is something that will happen in the future in your waking state you get a clue or an experience in your dream state and it is confirmed by something that happens in the waking state so on this on this basis we loosely say so the dream was true that does not mean the dream was true see for example i've said it again and again so somebody gives you um a a chocolate in your dreams your favorite candy from switzerland or something and comes and gives you in your dream and next day in the morning that person actually comes and gives you the chocolate in in your when you he comes and meets you and gives you that chocolate and you say it was true the dream was true but was it what was true about it if remember if it was true that the person had come and given you a chocolate in the dream then you would have two chocolates one which he gave you in the dream and next he came and gave you it in the waking state no all you mean by true is what i saw in the drew a dream predicted correctly what happened in the waking state that's all you all you mean not that it actually happened in the dream whatever happens in the dream is not true anyway i hope this basic point is is this is just i mean let alone logic is absolutely common sense so dreams are not true nobody and it doesn't take god or father nobody none of us no not even the person who's asking the question takes the dream to be true what you mean by the truth of dreams is does it accurately predict a truth of the waking state or it does not how does it predict that is if you ask vedanta vedanta will say there is a cosmic mind and they were all connected and the cosmic mind for cosmic mind time is you know past present and future it views all equally and sometimes you get some information there some leakage from the cosmic mind into your as a dream sometimes there are spiritual dreams also which are wonderful so that way and the important thing is what would be gauravada's perspective manduka's perspective on this not interested you see god of ada or the mandukya is not interested in the contents of our dreams what you saw whom you met what happened in the dream is not important gaurab others interested in to whom is it happening who is the experiencer of it who is illumining the dream it's a very simple move turning away from the subject object to the subject this move is essent it's very simple it's essential for advaitha if you are too interested in the object then this path is not for you will keep slipping back into the object see in our experience all our experience the structure is subject and object i experience something the way so our generally we are engrossed in the world of objects and that is samsara very difficult to pull us out from that then we become aware of ourselves and then we inquire into who am i that's where advaita begins ancient times also first religion was about what is the reality of this world i spoke about it in the macrocosm microcosm lecture first enquiry what was the reality of this world is there a god behind this world and then the deeper inquiry became what am i who is asking this question who am i that led to sankhya and yoga and buddhism and jainism and advaita all of that even in science just see that interest in consciousness our nature has come about only in the last 20 30 years real serious investigation the science of consciousness consciousness studies has taken up only last 20 30 years before that no scientist was seriously interested in studying consciousness imagine the thing which is closest to us which is our very nature we science had no interest in it eagerness to study the body the world outside and the furthest reaches of the cosmos the vastest and the tiniest object it shows an instinctive nature of the human being as we become more sophisticated than we inquire then we turn inwards so okay leave it at that now let me make some progress and i'll come back again we'll hold on to the questions number 44 [Music] uh translation of 44 as an elephant conjured up by magic is called an elephant by depending on perception and adequate behavior so from the facts of perception and adequate behavior a thing is said to be existing so earlier he had been using the example of dreams now shifting to a new example nice example magic elephant so i guess in ancient indian magic shows maybe they conjured up elephants nowadays they pull a rabbit proverbial rabbit out of a hat so i think they pulled elephant out of turbine i don't know what ah so because of the appearance and the behavior the elephant looks so big and menacing and maybe it's trumpeting and it's swinging its trunk and walking around so the child who sees this magic show feels terrified and starts crying but the parents are aware what are they aware though it looks like an elephant and it behaves like an elephant it looks like an elephant upalam bhat you perceive it behaves like an elephant sama charat adequate or correct behavior is also matching so it must be an elephant the child thinks so but the parents know the magician is behind it as sriram krishna used to say magician alone is real not the magic the parents know that notice both parents and child are seeing the same thing they are not saying two different things but the child thinks that the elephant is real and it gets scared by it and the parents do not get scared though they are having the same experience so what was the verse upalam bhat because of perception samajada because of behavior trumpeting and swinging the trunk and so and so forth here maya means magic similarly because of perception and behavior people insist that the world outside exists this is number 44 45 so what's the reality which is the substratum see whenever there is an appearance there must be something real if there is a false snake if you insist that's not a snake then you have a right to ask what is it really then if it's not water in the desert what is it really then if it is not so anything if you insist it is an appearance then you have to explain what is the reality then what is it that is appearing so here what is it that is appearing thurium 45 [Music] it is consciousness birthless motionless and non-material as well as tranquil and non-dual which has the semblance of birth appears to move and simulates a substance possessed of qualities when we see outside the world what do we see jaati origination always for godhapada means origination creation cause and effect birth existence death we see that means appearance not really born appears to be born the lion which was chasing me in the plains of africa it that land must have been burned from its parents but not really it just appears then chalabhasam change it is appears there's an appearance of change in the world the line must have been a lion cub and then it grew up young lion and then the mature lion and then it found server priyana and then chased him through the plains of africa i'm referring to my dream yesterday episode mentioned chalabhasam changes we are child youth middle age old age and death so the shadow vikar sixfold changes from birth to death this is challah that means change wasam seems to be an independent vastu means a substance existing independently by itself what that lion that tree this body but when i woke up from the dream no it's just the mind which appeared in all these ways similarly what is there in this world that's a dream example but what is god upon the saying this world is also like that as if appearing then chalabhasam as if changing and vastu abhasam as if independent real objects imagine in the dream actually there was no real origination of anything neither the lion nor the swami there not the tree there was really no change going on that lion chasing swami running no and really no was two independent entities there what is real then real in this world is turiam what is the nature of thorium ajam unborn consciousness is not born neither does it give rise to anything else it is only consciousness achalam without any change does not arise or disappear that was the main contention between the non-dualist gaurapada and the buddhist subjectivist consciousness is not subject to birth and destruction was awesome avast uttam he says it is not an entity a separate individual entity you know like a body which has possessed stuff shankaracharya gives examples devadatta devadatta is born devadatta is moving around and devadatta is fair and tall these are the qualities there is an object or person called devadatta and he has got these qualities such is not the nature of consciousness it's not a thing with qualities that is number 45 and that's the reality what is god upon the claiming that is the reality of this world what what we are experiencing now that consciousness appears to be a multiplicity of entities which are born and changing and dying which are independent things in the world and that same consciousness okay then number 46 [Music] [Music] in this way consciousness has no birth and all the beings the jivas who are consciousness alone they are also they are not undergoing birth that means there is no let me translate thus are the souls considered to be worthless those who know thus indeed do not fall into calamity number 46 so consciousness is not born that means it's neither a cause nor an effect we give us we are not we actually never become jivas we are consciousness though we appear to be jailed remember to understand this exactly like the dreamer that i was happily lying down safe and sound in my room in manhattan but appeared to be in africa and in lot of trouble being chased by a lion in the dream and so this whole concept of birth and rebirth is ultimately not true consciousness is not undergoing birth and reward it is not true that we are undergoing a cycle of birth and rebirth and then at one time we will be free of it thanks to god part of somebody no when we are free of it we will realize we always were free of it that at no time was there really consciousness embodied and going through births and rebirths i have told this story earlier the humorous story that one of our swamis was very interested in at one time that all the dharmic religions speak about multiple births and rebirths going to the cycle of rebirth and then have to we have to get free of it this is the whole project and yet there are these um abrahamic religions which speak of one birth and then eternal life whether in heaven or hell or something now which is true is there one birth clearly this birth is there that we know but is it a part of a series of births and deaths or is there only one birth one birth and one death so he was discussing this and this was in our little hut a little ashram in uttarkashi so other swamis in that little ashram soon got tired of these discussions and they didn't pay an attention to this swami so he took his debate outside our ashram to a nearby ashram where there was a very great non-dualist swami who was teaching advaita so he went and talked to him you have to talk in hindi there so punerjan and all this whether whether there is multiple birds or not punar janma yanahi then that swami listened patiently that non-dualist teacher and then he said i'll tell you in hindi and translate oh swami when there is no birth itself where is the question of rebirth please read mandukya so the swami came back and told me the story and he was furious he said these fellows advaitans you cannot have a serious discussion about the important topics whether we have many lives or one life you cannot discuss they'll immediately go to brahman and turiya and maya yes all right we'll take a short break break to look at questions right now because he is going to switch um start a new topic now 47 yeah all right let's see can you hear me yes i can hear you uh this is like an extension of what you said yesterday in class and then the email that you read out this morning so you also mentioned another point yesterday about uh even when we actually worship sarvanu brahman it's actually it's the same reality except we view it as an object then so you made this point yesterday so that means that in the course of upasana as a devotee maybe progresses on the path eventually it leads to you could say subject merging in the object that is what happens and that is how it leads to advaithic realization there well no not really in the dualistic path what will happen is that the reality behind the object what is the object your objective universe this universe which you are experiencing all of us have the same structure of experience i and this subject and object now what the duelist does is behind this entire objective universe the reality the power behind all of this is god the divine mother shiva narayana whatever so that is called saguna brahman and i worship and surrender to this all encompassing all loving benevolent power now what will happen is over time this will become a reality not just a question of believing in something just as you see this objective universe is real you see it and you feel it is real you will feel the god of this objective universe is also real and that god will become more and more real this objective universe will become sort of like a shadow compared to the reality the presence of god will become the greatest thing in your life so that reality will become manifest to you your limitations as a as a limited human being that will become unimportant to you to the point that you will feel not i but thou my lord that lord which is very clear to you now the presence of that god it will be so uh amazing overpowering that your own little existence will not matter anymore sriram krishna would say not me not me thou my lord tao my lord so it's a kind of you might emergence of the limited individuality into that reality yes uh who is next okay we have a number of people asking questions so please keep your question short and to the point oh yeah i basically oops hi swami hello yes i think yes uh first of all i want you to thank you because i had a little bit of a struggle with the fourth chapter and what you said earlier really relieved me of uh feeling bad of my struggle with the fourth chapter i've been with you almost from the beginning of the month class yes and always enjoyed it with god i always enjoyed gowdapada and his uh not beating around the bush but i really struggled with the fourth chapter so i'm really grateful for you mentioning that the struggle is normal for some people and just one quick question about self-realization in duality you mentioned yesterday that uh even though there is self-realization there remains some sort of individuality what you also just said to ramya yes so some kind of individuality may remain as atmo panchi says some kind sometimes the devotee may forget his or her own individual existence in the awesome presence of god he used some language like being they use language like being lost in the heart of god but they again come back to a sense of individuality and they come back with love for god yes a certain sense of individuality is mentioned is retained otherwise you cannot have dualistic worship but they still be liberated of course depends on what your liberty liberation means is it freedom from the cycle yes definitely then you will be liberated yes all right thank you who is next yes uh let me see if i can be brief so one of the things that i struggle with mandukya it sort of makes sense but then i realized okay out of the three states two states i can resolve my sleeping state and dreaming state and it's always the waking state when he's very direct and says all this is unreal and it looks uh pretty daunting to at times you know when you're dealing with life issues and things on the ground but then um i don't know if i'm oversimplifying but i always look forward to going to sleep and i know when i'm deep sleep this whole punch whatever i feel like during the day good bad ugly all vanishes and um i so look forward to it every night and probably most people do then why do i struggle with his i mean he's saying something pointing to me in my daily experience and and kind of telling me what happens no matter what happens during the day it all vanishes and you love it and then you come back and you want to hold on to whatever you think is your day labor punch is that kind of what is hinting at by our night experience and kind of dissolving the world and telling us that you know this is kind of a i don't know condensed version of what the big life from birth to death is all about yes your approach is correct what you are doing is punitive is uh you are basically you have taken the structure which mandu copenhagen has given us waking dreaming deep sleep and i am the witness of the three if you keep meditating on this meditating means thinking about it as you are thinking about it it will come the flash will come what is the flash that i am the unaffected witness of all these three i am the unaffected witness of all of these three they come and go in my light and they have no existence apart from me it's so what i see in the waking state is exactly what was there in the deep sleep state also and that what i see in the waking state in the unfurled way absolutely in all its glory and its terrible dimensions it is in front of me all that disappears into a blankness and deep sleep but whatever was there in deep sleep is exactly what is there in the waking state now there it was unmanifest now it is manifest i the witness consciousness i am free of these things free means they come and go i don't come and go when the waking step state goes away this which is so real you see i find it daunting why do i find it daunting because i consider it real do you did you pay attention to my dream experience africa and the lion chasing me i found it daunting now you may find it very funny that swami is running on the plains of africa with the lion chasing but why do you find it funny or i also find it funny now but why did i find it found it find it daunting when i was in that situation because i considered that situation to be real there is a real lion apart from me this body is real the tree is real now this body has to run up that tree otherwise it will be torn apart by the lion all of this was very real to me but though i though it was very real and i had i would have i would have debated you if you had challenged me at that time but now i have to admit after waking up none of it was real all of it was an appearance what was real the mind which was dreaming similarly in the waking state what is real you the consciousness the way to do it is this ask yourself when i find it daunting do i find it daunting as punita or do i find it daunting as turya turiya is not daunted by anything that happens in punita's life but punita the person is daunted by what is going on by the behavior of other persons by personal issues health finance all of these things the consciousness turiya is not daunted by any of it always take the stand like god apart is teaching us at the consciousness to whom waking dreaming and deep sleep are appearing and disappearing one practice is like this as you said that you find it very peaceful in deep sleep and you look forward to the dissolution of all problems and worries in deep sleep now that's a very good thing in the waking state also try to think that it's exactly like the deep sleep these differences which have appeared that annoying person this problem that problem they are all nothing covered by the the blankness of deep sleep then navigate your way through the waking state you see it's a good practice what i am saying to you is here in the troublesome waking state there is not one thing more than there was in the blissful deep sleep state there is no one extra item good or bad here actually then what was there in the deep sleep think about it who is next yes i just wanted to follow up on the question i had yesterday about where in the upanishads does that come and you said it does not come up anywhere and he's explaining no i said it comes up everywhere it is the derivation the interpretation of the upanishad by god a father yes so but but say even in manduk for example in verse number seven uh he they they say prapancha upashama even it starts with the that home is really all of this yes so if the world was not never uh happened yes and it was never gone how would they talk about the cessation of the world ah cessation of the world how real world and then the destruction of the world are they talking about that or an imagined world of error whose cessation is only possible by knowledge how what do you know how do you know what is the right interpretation look at the end of the seventh mantra the end of the seventh mantra is that has to be known it has to be realized it's not that the world has to be destroyed the once you realize the thorium that i am the tudya then prapanjo pashama happens by itself how is it possible that by knowing the turiya that i am the turia the universe will cease only if it is possible only if the universe was a false universe born of error knowledge can correct error but if it was a real universe knowledge could not destroy it you would only know it real universe would be known by knowledge but knowledge comes only the false universe will disappear see prapanchopashama applied to the dream example lion tree africa swami running terrified internal external full of problems externally line is changing internally terror is there fear is there the whole thing disappeared prabanjo pashama how did it disappear no i i understand that my point was that can't it be argued philosophically that since the upanishad says prapanjyo basham are they also take a word for granted and then there could have been an argument that the world is also there but i you didn't hear what i said if they take a world for granted then if the world is real then by knowing something it will not help so no then it would be um you have to be tamiva prapatyam that you have to worship and surrender to that turia who is the lord of this real universe only that lord can save you because by knowing it what will happen nothing by knowing the real snake nothing it's just going to chase you around but if it's a false snake then you know the rope it will liberate you from the from the false snake so from that all of the previous things in the first mantra that home is all of this yes it is beyond time and everything yes all of that is just like fourth is the reality and it is fourth only by maya sankhya this is the language of shankaracharya maya sankhya means by a false counting of one two three the one two three are appearances yeah they are not at the same level of reality so once they're in seventh mantra and understanding this the previous mantras also are kind of just building up yes so the seventh mantra shows that this is the reality and the others are appearances but it has to be done like that otherwise it will not help us we will not be free of it we are aware of waking dreaming and deep sleep at most and nothing else the turia is right here but we are not aware of it so that has to be pointed out somehow if you directly tell you are brahman you know what brahman no start where you are where are you waker and waking world are you aware that you're sometimes dreamer and you have dreams yes yes sometimes deep sleeper and deep sleep yes yes are you three people no so the waker dreamer deep sleeper must be the same what is common to all of them consciousness thank you yes um let us quickly move on hold on to your questions and comments now a new thing is coming very simple um i will keep moving at this speed i hope it is all right i'm not moving too fast no yes no raise your hand it's all right or slow down slow down little bit because i'm moving fast because not only to finish but also because these things have been discussed actually in the fourth third and second chapters all right let's see you will see that um the what is given now is very understandable i don't have to go into the details but you will see it's pretty simple a new example is introduced and this is important because the chapter alatashanti prakaranam takes its name from this example so that alata example is being introduced what is alata example let me explain before going into the example the alata example is fire brand so imagine like a flaming torch like a like a stick with fire on the top now if you wave it around you'll have different patterns in a dark room or in in the evening from a distance if you wave the torch around if you whirl it around you'll see circle of fire if you move it up and down you will see a wave motion of fire but neither there is a circle nor there is any wave the patterns don't exist only that point of fire that that little fire brand that is existing i remember when we were kids in diwali so we would have this pulgary that is i i don't know what other terms are used it's a kind of cracker so it's sparkler they call it sparkler it produces little bursts of fire colorful and we would whirl it around and it made nice patterns so that is the example what's the example just as the fire brand alata you whirl it around and different patterns are produced similarly consciousness produces consciousness only consciousness being real produces this multiplicity of experiences yes you may say it's all in consciousness if i even if i accept why does this multiplicity come consciousness is only one where has this variety come from variety is also due to consciousness it's because of the like the whirling of the fire brand now what is the similarity between the examples example and exemplified what is the example fire brand and whirling it around and shapes and patterns are produced what are they talking about what do they want to illustrate consciousness and the multiplicity of the universe being produced or appearing so like the fire brand firebrand is one but the shapes are many many many similarly consciousness is one but a multiplicity of um appearances come in the universe that's one similarity another similarity is the fireband is luminous it shines by itself and it can illumine other things also similarly consciousness reveals itself self-aware and it illuminates everything else also luminosity prakash or subprakash is another similarity and karyakarana the firebrand is the cause of all the patterns circular pattern wavy pattern all are produced only because of firebrand similarly consciousness is because of consciousness all these appearances are coming and um last the fire brand the fire alone is the real reality all the patterns are not real fire septim pattern mithya similarly consciousness alone is the reality all the appearances are not real not separate things so turiya satya and jagat mithya brahma satyam jagat mithya so these are the similarities between the example and exemplified just two points it will say that you use a word spandana vibration as firebrand is world around you get various shapes as consciousness vibrates you get the various appearances so immediately you will say ah so consciousness vibrates panda and this is another implication there is a whole philosophy of kashmiri shaibism which says that consciousness vibrates spanda there's a whole text also spandakarika so that is the shaivite philosophy so are you admitting that consciousness vibrates no you want you will not be surprised to see godapatha does not admit that consciousness vibrates the way of speaking it is because of the presence of maya that consciousness though one appears to be multiple spanda or vibration is a way of speaking it's not that consciousness really vibrates at our personal level individual level you the turia you appear as multiplicity as experiencer experienced doer knower experiencer because of the activity of the mind consciousness doesn't is not active it just shines but because of the flickering of the mind many virti is coming and going it seems as if consciousness is vibrating in fact that's why the buddhist objectivist thought that there are flashes of consciousness no constant consciousness shining on flashes of thought appears to be flashes of consciousness so there's no no actual change in consciousness no vibration that's what i'm trying to say second did you just say that consciousness is the cause of the universe karjakarana just like the flame the firebrand is the cause of the patterns did you say that again that's just a way of speaking god or father will never admit consciousness as cause of the universe you will he will explain he will say that cause actually requires two things causation is a relationship dwinishta someone the relationship is established by two terms at least now fire fire brand and pattern are they two different things no there is no difference between the fire brand and the pattern the patterns which emerge are because of the movement of the fire brand so there are not two things for which there will be there will be a relationship the causality is just a way of explaining this ultimately causality also will be denied now let us read the verses now we'll easily understand the example just keep in mind a firebrand which is being whirled around and that is illustrating brahman and jagat consciousness and the world number 47 rejuva [Music] foreign as the movement of a firebrand appears to be straight or crooked so it is the vibration of consciousness that appears to be the knower and the known it should be simple enough it is because of consciousness vibrating with with footnote vibration does not mean vibration uh because of consciousness with maya it appears to be nowhere and known i am reminded of swami vivekananda's another verse is there another stanza one alone exists it appears as nature soul that means consciousness alone exists it appears as subject and object or here as nowhere and the known next so the exam same example is continuing now aspanamanta [Music] so when the firebrand is not in motion it becomes free from appearances and birth so consciousness when not in vibration will be free from appearances and birth what does it mean so if you don't hurl the friend around just stop it'll shine but the patterns will not be seen anymore so no patterns are produced similarly when consciousness is realized as it is apart from maya apart from the mind you will suddenly realize consciousness alone exists there these things are all the products now the important thing to note is the world may still continue to appear the variety may still continue to appear you will realize they are none other than you the consciousness what punita ji said that dream about deep sleep and waking why so much difference because i am troubled by the appearances why am i troubled by the appearances because i take them to be real and separate from me i am taking the knower and known to be real if in one consciousness is appearing as punita and all the objects and people who are troubling her i am the consciousness i am not punita then i will see whether they are all merging into the blankness of deep sleep or appearing in the full glory of waking i know i am their underlying reality if i am put back now in that african jungle or that plains and with the full knowledge that this planes and the tree and the lion and the servoprian in the body are all appearances in me the dreaming mind i'll be better prepared i will not say i will still not be scared if the special effects are very strong i'll still be scared of the lion who's charging but i will be able to resist that the terror i know it is not real not real means it's all in my mind here we will have to say not in my mind all appearance in consciousness let's go on number 49 [Music] important point here about causality and that's his great um be in the bonnet for god or father he says the patterns which which are there when you whirl the fire brand around have they actually come out of that fire do actually pattern the things called patterns emerge from the fire no it's an appearance caused by the movement of the firebrand that's all no abhasabas means patterns no patterns actually emerge from the firebrand and when you stop the firebrand movement do they merge back into the firebrand no not at all they neither come from anywhere else did the patterns exist and then they came no were they produced by the fire brand no they appeared when the fire brand was moved and at the end when the fire band is stopped did the patterns go away somewhere on vacation no did they merge back into the fire brand no they did not exist separately from the fire brand anyway so the the patterns neither come from outside nor are they produced by the fire brand motion neither do they at the end neither do they disappear into the fireband nor do they go away anywhere else this is the mysterious nature of those patterns they are seen but there is no origination or cessation of these patterns really they are only appearances similarly in the universe the universe is not produced from consciousness nor did it come from anywhere else and revealed by consciousness which is the scientific materialist perspective and at the end when they disappear they don't disappear back into consciousness nor do they go away anywhere else they do not disappear back into consciousness because this is important point all the time with the religious language we are reading they come from brahman they exist in brahman they disappear back into brahman godupath saying no none of it ever happened even when it seems to be happening was the lion actually born from my mind no and at the end when i woke up did the lion come and merge back into my mind no did the lion go away to its uh is it still there in africa no did it come from africa and then come to my mind no neither it came from outside nor was it actually produced from my mind it only appeared it is my mind alone appearing as that lion it is your you the theory alone appearing as this tremendously diverse universe before you not one bit of it has come from other than you not one bit of it has been produced by you also appearance all throughout that's a good way of putting it but it exists it's real you may say it troubles me that existence reality is your existence and your reality you the turia you have lent existence to that world now it troubles you swami vivekananda said things are dead in themselves we breathe life into them then we run after them or we run away from them dead in themselves means their names and forms we breathe reality into them and then we run after them tempted or run away from them terrified lion then let's move on 50. yoga they did not issue out of the fire pen who did not those patterns by reason of their unsubstantiality with regard to consciousness also the appearances must be of similar kind for as an appearance there is no distinction so the patterns did not circle and wave patterns did not actually come out of the fire because they are not things patterns are not things similarly the world what is shining in in the world which is shining in you the consciousness here consciousness see so many words are being used earlier he was using the word chitta now he's using the word vigna he means consciousness in consciousness purana that means appears they are appearances they did not actually emerge from you because they are not things then number 51 52 then we will take a break and look at the questions and comments which have accumulated [Music] [Music] so when consciousness is in vibration and remember by vibration within quotes the appearances do not come to it from anywhere else neither do they go anywhere else from consciousness when it is at rest nor do they then enter into it so i have already said this then number 52. yato they did not issue out of consciousness they means all these things in the universe including my own body and mind they did not issue out of consciousness by reason of their unsubstantiality for they are ever beyond comprehension being without any relation of cause and effect with consciousness so what are all these things we see in the universe they are not real things produced by consciousness they are not unreal also why because we experience them we are having a whole samsara festival is going on joy and sorrow and all of that so you cannot dismiss them that's why he calls them achintya so this is very achintiya inconceivable this later on became developed into full-fledged theory of anirvachanyata in advaita vedanta after godupath late much later shankaran after that anirachanyta means sad asad bham anirvachanyam you cannot express these things which things everything in the universe you cannot express them as ultimately real because ultimately real is consciousness you cannot express them as unreal you cannot term them as unreal because they are experienced they are part of your so you have to say they are inconceivable so which is my exactly somebody commented which is maya this is this achieved a little word which god introduces godupath does not give the technical meaning of maya you see he uses maya's magic maya husty magical elephant but the techn the vast technical apparatus which grew around the term maya in the centuries after godapadha this little term achintia inconceivable just like the lion in our dreams also the lion i saw and the tree i saw and all of that i saw in the dream were the real lion and tree no but they're really produced by the dreamer's mind no though they did not exist at all no you can't say that also because it affected me i still remember it so um then we have to do how much more so they are beyond was an effect and yet they appear so that is why they are beyond comprehension but point is once you realize them in this way it will stop troubling you will be free of suffering even when you are seeing them that's the big thing then number 53 okay we will not go there now let me look at the comments and questions 53 and 54 a slightly different topic yes first of all i must thank you yesterday when i was asking about the fact that even though that even though um when we are in this world and we have understood i mean my identity is i am no more then what about the other jivas so they are no other jeevas yeah just be careful never say i am unreal advaita vedant it's just the see do one of the two either i am your name is sushma that's right either i am sushma this person in this world which is real this is all right or i am the thorium in which sushma and the world are appearing always go from smaller to the greater from the little to the vast if you say i am nothing i am not real it will lead to um psychological problems and it really it will lead to like a feeling and i am not saying this some turiya is there swamiji is talk only golda patha knows what it is but i am nothing this much i have understood that i am nothing no you are everything you are the infinite you are that thuriya if that is too difficult then say at least i am sushma this much is true once we know that then once do i understand that you just go with the flow whatever correct correct right right you are getting the uh hang of it then it becomes a joy it becomes your expression then you the turian now are appearing in this grand world with sukhadu happiness misery ups and downs sushma will live her life it will go on for some time after that sushma identity will drop off you the turiya you wear turya you remain turiya you will always victoria so that is the freedom yes thank you that correct thank you that's a real aha moment for me yes but swamiji one more thing yoga i was reading that and i i find that what uh manduka is saying what rishabh is saying just seems to be establishing what yoga is absolutely yoga and manduka they have the same message same message no different very good thank you yes yes yes very good not neglected not neglected is like dismiss the dismissed yes so whatever i do in a dream has no implication on the waking life so why should we follow the righteous and moral part who is asking from toria's perspective there is no question of right and wrong doing this or not doing that but who is asking if you as poonam are asking punam definitely is the vishwa the waker in the waking world if you do not follow right and wrong poonam will be affected are you ready to face that and if you feel that if i do papa and i i might get suffering and i don't like it then better not do power better do punya but as thorium you transcend both papa and prunium that is already there you will not be affected by it yes as long as we are affected see this is one one point i want to make this is something very nice i got from the tibetan buddhists so they are so much like us the sunni wada aspect approach and advaita approach from the highest perspective of turya these are certain things i know that i am beyond karma i am beyond good and evil knowing that i vow to keep on performing good and avoiding evil from the highest perspective of turiya there is no guru nash there is no guru there is no knowing that i vow to give the highest respect to my guru knowing that i am the witness consciousness there is no difference between meditative mind and disturbed mind from my conscience i am the witness of the tudor who sees the meditative mind and disturbed mind knowing that i vow to to continue practice of deep meditation like this so many vows and these are vows for advanced practitioner once you have understood then hold on to this until one is fully enlightened there is no surety so the danger what swami athmurupanji said the danger is always there of slipping away from this having known this i vow to hold on to the right path good nathan yeah uh so really quickly uh just want to hear your personal take at this understand understand god the father's take on this but uh uh so dream is a illusory level of reality and so it's a lower level of reality than the relative yes but there so for the dream to appear there is something going on at the relative yes brain neurons are firing correct the keys are appearing correct so for this relative which is a lower level of reality than the absolute something has to be going on at the absolute for this to appear not going on the nature of the absolute is that there is no going on there it's the very nature you see then why does it appear if you ask that i know i mean i know your answer to that question to the why in the cause but uh there can be nothing going on in the absolute thing that once you had mentioned one of your talks that brahman is trying to experience itself because the nature of consciousness is to experience but since brahman is infinite it is inexperienceable so consciousness trying to experience itself gives rise to this error just like we look at the sky and the domes one thing i'll mention here there is a causal connection between the relative and the appearance that between the waking and the dream already we have done one verse there god himself says the dream is produced by the impressions of the waking state so the waking state actually produce the dream waking state is the cause and the dream is the effect cause and effect relationships are admitted in um jagrat swapna sushupti sushrupti is the ultimate cause of all of these but turiya has no causal link with jagrat swapna sushupti so why jagrat swapna sushupti waking dreaming and deep sleep are appearing and cycling don't look for a cause in the in the absolute from the absolute perspective there is no cause there there's no causal it's absolutely cut off there is no causal link between the absolute and the waking dreaming deep sleep within waking dreaming deep sleep you can have cause and effect yeah taker figure yeah yes swamiji i have a question yes you have to unmute this question is related [Music] of consciousness so can we say it's actually the vibration of the correct correct at the cosmic level it is maya it is because of maya that consciousness seems to have a spandana a vibration consciousness does not vibrate from advaita perspective it will be terrible to admit consciousness vibrates because consciousness has no change but from because of maya it seems to have changed satwara just thomas keeps on changing and so the world appears because of maya and consciousness at our level as you said mind keeps on changing and therefore consciousness feels seems happy sad restless concentrated these are all aspects of mind waking dreaming deep sleep these are all aspects of mind only so when we say three states of consciousness not correct waking dreaming and deep sleep are not three states of consciousness there are three states of the mind correct can you hear me yes so my question was that gaura father uses the theory of causality uh where he cuts down theory personality causality to show his to prove his theory now how is it different from others i see the same example being used in both places yes yes correct correct is the standard idea of advaita vedanta is the heart of the says method what is the superimposition d superimposition swain vivekandar called it hypnotization de-hypnotization we are already hypnotized and advaitha dehypnotizes us the whole process is de-hypnotization after that you let go let go of the advaithic process also so what is the superimposition d superimposition superimposition is law of karma samsara um the physical body subtle body causal body is all superimposition deeps d superimposition i am not the body not the mind i am the witness of all of this um cause and effect cannot be real when you accept cause and effect because of that many lives are going on and to come out of this this is the superimposition when you let it go it is called superimposition and it will leave you as pure consciousness so the peculiar way of doing the simple superimposition here apavadha in godhapada is the attack on causality it is really a very profound way of looking so later on in advaita vedanta you don't find this overt attack on causality um they'll talk about law of karma and all of that maya and then finally take up something like um panchakusha the vivek which are like this uh or drigrishya and they do their d superimposition in that way but here it's a direct attack on causality to show that you as pure consciousness you have actually no connection with the appearance of the world you you have to be bold enough to let go of the question why distracts you in samsara the question why traps you in samsara i'll give you a little insight short inside but very valuable all sadhana ultimately asks you to let go of causality notice highest bhakti is what a bhakti i love without any condition no give and take i will not ask for mukti nothing i will just love and nothing else that is love beyond causality there is no logic to that love look at karma yoga karma is give and take i will do i will get the result good good bad bad but karma yoga you give up that causality i will continuously unselfishly keep on giving give give and never look back that's why vivekananda says keep on giving never look back why the moment you look back you're trapped in causality look back means to see how much i have done how great i am one who looks back he says his ocean dwindles into a drop shin he says then look at your meditation raja yoga the highest samadhi up to savikalpa samadhi with effort dharana dhyana samadhi can be achieved lot of effortness but from there to nirvikalpa it is effortless it will happen by itself no cause and effect will work there and guyana of course is turia beyond cause and effect notice in every yoga at one point you have to go beyond causality yeah all right thank you thank you then i don't know yes um i think i know what your answer will be but i thought i'll still want to hear your thoughts because i am confused um so there is a temptation to say compare something like spandana in kashmiri charism with you know the latest theory in physics say super strings and all right i think you will say it is false equivalency um can you just um i think that's what you will say like you cannot compare that spandan in kashmir shaivism with with the super strings or some theory like super strings can you just say why is that not as i mean i asked this question to you know brian greene who's this cosmologist who has written this elegant universe the previous documentaries also he's a professor of cosmology in colombia you heard of brian greene yes you told me about him and ever since i actually been uh reading his uh stuff world science festival and all it's quite amazing yeah and his latest book is until the end of time about consciousness and meaning and all of that anyway so i asked this question exactly what you asked i asked and he said he had these debates long ago with his elder brother who is a monk a hindu monk he's a monk in the iskcon so his point is there are exactly like you he said i admit there are similarities he said this but i find them like poetic echoes of science so what you have got in uh vedas he doesn't know much about vedante see what you've got in the vedas are like poetic echoes they are not science so they are like poetic equals and maybe they are pointing to the same thing they have got it right but yeah it's not and is right there it's it's not a scientific paper let's say we leave it at that i guess i'm trying to force to reconcile and so i am very cautious about that but remember you are right swami vivekanth was himself very interested in this what you are saying he went to tesla with these questions and he had discussions with tesla tesla said he writes in a letter so i'm vivekanda i'm going to meet tesla and we are going to have a discussion he has said he can prove the theories of sankhya mathematically which means swami vivekananda was very invested in this at that time more than 100 years ago between with this similarity between sankhya vedanta modern physics cosmology and so on we leave it at that let me just do a couple of more verses bring it to a sort of logical conclusion we will see again what questions are there 53. yes a substance can be a cause of a substance and one thing can be the cause of another different thing from itself but the souls can be considered neither as substances nor as something different from other things the same point what is the point here the point is this cause and effect are two independent things so parents and child so parents have produced the child and then there can be a relation of cause and effect between them we don't normally say you know we say hi dad you don't say hi cause and you do say take care effect you don't say that you say take your son or daughter so but what you mean is that cause and effect are two independent things parents are separate and independent after birth of the child child is also separate and independent and there is a link of cause and effect between them but here in the case of firebrand and their patterns are in the case of consciousness and appearances they are not two independent things all these souls these jivas are actually one consciousness they are not apart from each other they are not separate and they are not independent existing things between which there can be cause and effect relationship neither are the objects separate from the the consciousness between which there can be cause and effect nor is the consciousness separate from each other between different jivas so there can be really no cause and effect between consciousness and the universe or between the g was themselves this much then the last one today that brings to a close this kind of discussion number 54 [Music] evama [Music] beautiful verse in this way external entities are not the products of consciousness nor is consciousness a product of external entities thus the wise confirm the birthlessness of cause and effect what is said here what is the relationship between matter and consciousness matter and consciousness objects and consciousness one theory consciousness is project is produced by objects by by matter whose theory is it modern science materialistic reduction is science says in the big bang after the singularity became a big bang matter energy as we know it space and time were there and over time the stars came about and the planets cooled down and then matter became organic matter the organic matter somehow it became living matter and this living matter became more and more evolved on earth at least and became sophisticated brains and nervous systems and there somehow consciousness originated so consciousness much later by product epi phenomenon bill conrad here he says human beings human consciousness is an afterthought in the universe so for a matter is all important so matter which is now called bill conrad said that matter alone i am matter only and consciousness is just by byproduct is an afterthought that is matter is primary he says see 1400 years ago some people say matter is primary consciousness is produced by matter what was the language um dharmajam so the very old language here again is back to using the word chittam for consciousness so consciousness is a product of matter that's one theory another theory says matter is a product of consciousness just the opposite who says that all religions theistic religions say that god produced the universe so this god is conscious or unconscious of course god is conscious who says god will be unconscious so that means consciousness produced matter energy time space religion theistic religion says consciousness was first and it produced what does god say both are wrong neither consciousness was produced by matter nor matter was produced by consciousness consciousness alone always existed is there and will be there and you are that consciousness this kind of thinking using the example of dream magic elephant fire brand by this kind of reasoning he says manish the wise have gone beyond the thinking of cause and effect in a matter of producing consciousness or consciousness producing matter no but they see consciousness as the fundamental reality and are free of samsara okay a widget had one more question you you said earlier that the ways of de-super imposition can panchakusha viveka or avastatra etc they can be turned into a practice a sadhana yes how is gawdah brothers attack on causality for decomposition how can we turn that into a sadhana this is very advanced so what what happens is once you realize yourself as the consciousness to rear how first chapter waking dreaming deep sleep appear to come and go i'm the fourth i am not waker not dreamer not deep sleeper i am the fourth by our star which are when you are realized that then still remains the question of what's all this there you have to overcome causality that this is something apart from me has been produced from me there is a reason behind it no god of others see advice traditional teaching advaita stops with maya godupath goes beyond that also he asks why maya then he comes to the whole question of causality itself and he sees causality is false so there is no answer to the question why not because we don't know because as one vivekananda simply says question itself is wrong why is the question wrong because causality is wrong why is causality wrong you read fourth chapter so you are pointing to this two moments of advaitha which you had mentioned before one moment is knowing that i am thorium and i am not all of this and then the second movement is going there yes yes actually both movements are accomplished in the first chapter itself you will notice separation of the consciousness from everything is done by australia but remember at the same time avastatra also includes virat hiranya garbha and ishwara which is the cosmic dimension so the entire cosmos is also absorbed into thuria there but these are little details left to be found out because the question will still remain to us you know why how what is the link between me the consciousness and all of this answer by god upon is flush all these ideas out they are all products of a mis of of a misleading notion of causality so so this implies that the causality which we perceive everywhere and or everywhere it's just a complete randomness it's just the play of mind which is um ultimately yes but be careful within the vehicle please hold on to causality otherwise disaster will be there randomness or accident is a dangerous path to go down so the way is this in religion in civilization spirituality ways from not understanding causality instinctive action at the level of animal or children absolutely babies or something then understanding of causality this leads to that superior understanding of causality is karma not only physically this leads to that but morally also from there to realization when you abandon causality also but in the beginning one cannot abandon cause one must learn through causality then go beyond causality so karma is first first is instinctive level then one uses karma to become a good religious dutiful person in the world and then having refined oneself ready for for spiritual realization one engages in the higher sadhana which i mentioned all higher sadhana not just godhapada all higher southern actually cuts down causality one must go beyond this swami vivekananda uses the term shopkeeping religion i'll give you this you give me that beyond the shopkeeping religion that is beyond causality very good i think we should end here questions in the chat if i can just read them out yes i am struggling with the fireband metaphor it seems that what is created in time is being used to negate what is created in space the second if there is no spandana waving action of the firebrand equals maya correct we just discussed that that's it waving action refirement equals maya yes correct yes um struggling with the fire brand metaphor what is created in time is being used to negate what is created in space um i have to think about that rakhishi all right let us uh end it here today and we will take it up ah tomorrow we have time tomorrow [Music] take care everybody be safe we'll meet again tomorrow you