Video 40

41. Mandukya Upanishad | Chapter 3 Karika 20-22

let's start with the chant here in um [Music] before we get started a couple of points um i've just um oh on friday morning is sri ramakrishna's birthday the puja so we know we have two events for this one the puja itself in the morning that's on friday morning so if you are able to do join in i think it's at 8 30 and then we have breakfast afterwards eight o'clock eight o'clock it's at eight o'clock on friday morning and the sunday i will have a special session talk about srirama krishna and flower offerings again songs all of that the second thing is just something i read today a race to prove the theories of consciousness it's interesting of course immediately caught my eye i didn't know that there's a news newspaper report today uh there is um um the templeton of our uh templeton foundation they're given 20 million dollars to verify which theory of consciousness is more promising so very interesting we are not in the race nowhere near and i was disappointed to see the article doesn't even mention david chalmers the hard problem of consciousness once the result is they're all taking it for granted that it must be something in the brain which is the source of consciousness so ultimately they are not really putting it as a philosophical question is consciousness consciousness of fundamental reality or um is it are there two realities consciousness and material material universe or is the material they've already decided that it's the material universe which is producing consciousness so decided they never even questioned that um so inevitably whatever they whatever they find will be wrong so from our point of view the best the best that one can hope for is all these discussions a lot of discussion a lot of papers there is what is called the global workspace theories gwts there is the iit not the indian institute of technology the integrated information uh theory of tanoni who is here uh who very very promising uh theory of consciousness then there is hot the higher order theories the consciousness is something beyond the processing capacity of the mind so they are devising experiments to prove which one is more promising which is a better theory what could be the outcome one outcome which i think would be the better outcome is when they will end up deciding none of them really points to the points to what consciousness is it might generate some learning about hopefully it will generate some learning about what the brain is and what it does so that that is a good outcome the bad outcome is if they discover what makes consciousness what is bad in the sense that they will come to something and they will think that yes this is it and that's it they think that we have found consciousness it it's it is guaranteed to be wrong because if you if you already thought that consciousness is an object that's the way they're talking so they're talking about something else the activity of the neurons processing of information the leading contender who is a little bit closer to what we are talking about is a scientist called tanoni um who has this theory called integrated information theory something i'm not very sure it's a very complicated thing prakayat was telling me about it so um his basic the sound bite they give little bit exactly what the theory is about christophe whom some of you might remember we went and so he is one of the leading persons in this whole race to prove the leading theory of consciousness but turn on his sound bite is consciousness that experiences consciousness that when you have an experience that means for there to be consciousness there must be an experience i was thinking that's pretty close you know what advaitans would say for there to be experience there must be consciousness consciousness plus an object of consciousness is experience notice look at our own experience what are we consciousness plus an object of consciousness is experience is it not true there's an object and you see it and you get a conscious experience of i am seeing it what he's thinking is that the experience generates consciousness it doesn't it but in in an advaitic sense he's pretty close why what happens in an experience it's like you know what he's saying from an advertising perspective light is generated when there is a reflector that's what he's trying to say which is not true light exists and a reflection happens when you bring and bring an object there is light here but when you bring an object here then it is shining in that light if a person does not understand light he will think that this exp this thing itself is generating light this reflection itself is generating light we don't know we said no no we know that there is light in this environment and if you bring an object what happens reflection reflection is not generating the light when you say experience generates consciousness no no it's the other way around consciousness is there and because of that if you have an object you have an experience consciousness plus an object a form visual experience a sound auditory experience a thought or a memory a mental a purely mental experience right in fact advaita vedanta objects what do they do for consciousness what does consciousness do for an object and what do objects do for consciousness we'll put it this way food for thought consciousness reveals the object and the object you know what i understand what i mean by object anything that you experience and the object manifests consciousness you feel aware when there is something to be aware of but that does not mean awareness was not there earlier in the deep darkness of space it's flooded with light it's only when a satellite or a comet or something passes through it that in shines with the sunlight which is streaming from the sun to the earth in between it doesn't seem bright because there's nothing to reflect that light similarly in deep sleep in samadhi it's flooded with consciousness but there is no object for it to be aware of that's why you don't think that i saw something in deep sleep or there is no specific experience in samadhi that deep some in the deepest samadhi nirvikalpa samadhi and yet you are completely aware um the the example is this what does light do for objects like a book or a hand light illumines the object if the light was not there you wouldn't be able to see the book if you hold up a book in a dark room or a hand in a dark room you won't be able to see it light illumines it that which is covered in darkness is illumined by light what does this object on the hand we normally don't ask this question what do the objects do for light they manifest it it's there but you really don't notice it until an object comes similarly objects or let's put it this way experience consciousness makes experience possible and what does experience does what does experience do experience manifests consciousness are you with me yeah and this is exactly what where of course gernard is coming from a different angle altogether but here is where they're missing the point he's thinking that experience produces consciousness okay yes the electrical waves in the brain that are accompanying uh true some activity must be there there's an experience there must be a physical correlate there must be a physical correlate but the physical correlate is not producing the consciousness itself to experience an object ultimately the object see any kind of experience when you see something an object light is it bounces of the object enters your visual system through the eyes transmitted through the brain to the nervous system into the brain to optical nerves to the brain and something must be happening there and after that it is presented to you as a first-person experience at that point consciousness reveals but the input must come through the system so if it does come to the system something obviously will happen in the brain but that doesn't mean that the brain is producing consciousness no more than say my hand is producing light that's what we would say um but it is not acceptable to um to the modern scientific paradigm because it's absolutely limited to the physical uh materialist reductionist paradigm that there must be the brain and nervous system and nothing else and nothing else but here but the article also points out that all of the theories are so vague and confusing has to be entirely meaningless it says all of these theories but it's interesting how notice it should really give people pause after all consciousness is found where most obviously in us living beings in living creatures and evolved living creatures like us that's what at least we feel conscious we have we find consciousness in ourselves tell me one other feature of this living human body which is so confusing to modern science everything else about this living body you have either understood to a great depth science biologists doctors or at least we have got pretty good theories pretty good idea about what it is accept consciousness why would it be so people understand life to a great extent you understand digestion you understand um all the processes of metabolism um the the hormonal system they understand electrical activity and the tiniest electrical activity in the brains all of these things are pretty well understood there might be mysteries about it but even there doctors biologists have a pretty good idea endocrinologists neuroscientists they're pretty good idea of what's going on so they have they have avenues of inquiry there is no deep problem about it there is no great confusion about it more research more time will reveal many more things that's all nobody sees that it's a real great debate except for consciousness why would it be so strange why is it so strange yeah i mean true but but from a if you take a materialist perspective reduction is perspective it shouldn't be strange it should be one more phenomenon yes but people think that that's what what scientists are saying that they can know the scientists are saying that they can know scientists are saying that they can know right so you are saying it from a vedantic perspective yeah no but it doesn't give them pause i mean that why is it so strange the closest they come to discussing the hard problem of consciousness is one scientist is saying that one of the leading scientists he says that there is a theory called pan psychism that its consciousness is ubiquitous spread all over no no consciousness is not like a thin layer of jam which is spread over the universe clearly it occurs in units everywhere there's one unit of consciousness one unit one unit there and therefore um fan psychism cannot cannot describe how consciousness has got separate units so it's dismissed they have got the whole thing you know the card before the horse it's not that consciousness according to vedanta it's not that consciousness is spread like jam over toast the consciousness is spread over the universe rather the universe appears in consciousness and the answer is and then and it's if you simply look at our experience that should be the starting point our experience should be the starting point i'm not saying the open issue should be a starting point our experience should be the starting point where do you experience um the universe in your awareness yes you're going kind of fast for me so i haven't started this discussion has nothing to do with what we are i mean it has everything to do but it's just an aside yes go on so okay so that's why i would like to find some simplicity here for so it doesn't make this probably but consciousness is always here i would vedanta would say here is in consciousness consciousness is always here no here is in consciousness not consciousness is here anyway go ahead put your questions when you see a book yeah it's because consciousness is shining on the book and that's how you started you said like in space this really kind of woke me up you said that the sun is always shining in space but you can't see it because it's not reflected off of anything if you look at the sun you can see it but if you look at just look at the space in between the sun and earth it looks dark yeah so that kind of blew my mind that i wouldn't see a satellite in the blackness of space if there wasn't a sunset behind me that i didn't see shining on it so consciousness is like the sun in that sense that's step one remember non-dualism is in two steps once you become aware of what consciousness is now here is where the analogy and the analogy the example doesn't apply in the case of the light in space a satellite being seen in space the moon say the moon or the satellite and the sunlight there are two different things there is an object which is illumined by light and i see it so that's what's happening but here in advaitha where we are going to go now if you stop there the closest indian philosophy is sankhya it's two realities there's a physical universe and there is consciousness consciousness is shining like light upon a dark universe and giving us experiences conscious first-person experiences that's sankhya now that is acceptable you one one um accepts that completely and then one goes one step further if you're going to come to non-dualism because sankhya is also dualism well in a way it segues nicely into today's discussion discussion because gorda pada was discussing that he was attacking the dualists the dualists stop at that you are consciousness immortal unchanging consciousness channeled through a physical body mind you experience a world when the physical body mind is a part of a material universe that's you sanchez stops there the philosophy stops there but advaita asks a further question what is the relationship if any between consciousness and the external unit and the universe are they really two separate entities we have discussed this earlier but let me pose a simple question when are you justified in saying two things are separate independent when you can you can experience them separately the minimum thing should be each one should be experienceable independent of the other is this head part of the body yes until you cut it off you can't experience the head and the body separately but is the cap part of this body no because though you are experiencing it together now you see you can experience the cap apart from the body and the body apart from the cap and you can say that the two things are separate entities now how will you apply this criterion to the universe and consciousness see the answer is in the question it's a trick question how can you experience the universe and consciousness apart from each other you cannot you can't because the very word experience includes consciousness i mean it doesn't exist in the first place that's next but the very word experience includes consciousness what is experience define it consciousness plus object is equal to experience true or not you can just put it that's a very good equation to think about we should send it to tononi what's the proof that the equation is right your own your own experience all the time you're you're validating it throughout our your life consciousness the big c plus object is equal to experience consciousness plus object is experience how does this work consciousness plus a form i see like this i see consciousness plus a sound i hear his third consciousness plus a fragrance i smell it consciousness plus a cookie i taste consciousness plus a sensation it hurts i have an experience of hurt consciousness plus you know remembrance remembering something a memory i remember so i see i hear i smell i taste i touch these are what are called experiences i think i understand i remember these are what are called experiences and these experiences consist of two things you the consciousness plus an objective element an object of consciousness that which appears to you just as anything that you example anything that you see a pen is not just a pen it's pen plus light a hand you're not just seeing a hand it's hand plus light which you are seeing now similarly every experience is an object plus consciousness the consciousness is you and the object comes up before you now the question is what is the relationship between the consciousness and the object sankhya says science says um i have given this chart earlier some time ago the object generates the consciousness by what i mean is the objective universe somehow generates consciousness and a part of the objective universe like us we become aware of the objective universe universe itself becomes aware of itself through human beings and other conscious beings traditional religion hold the questions traditional religion says consciousness generates the universe how does it say that god in any religion god is always a conscious being not nobody has talked about an unconscious uh a freudian unconscious god no in every religion god must be a conscious being and god is the creator in theistic religion so god has created the universe material universe is created by consciousness here i mean consciousness god consciousness whatever so this is another theory a third theory is consciousness and material universe are both real and they are parallel they interact that is sankhya and that is what today pan psychism might say david chalmers and others are pushing that none of these are dweta what does advaita say consciousness alone is real and within it it's aware of a universe the universe is nothing other than the consciousness itself appearing within itself it has no reality apart from the consciousness that's what god is trying to prove here this is non-dualism why nondualism because the universe is not a second reality apart from consciousness though it appears to be second notice nobody can deny that we experience plurality duality the dualis say we experience duality here the non-dualist also has to admit that we experience duality but is this duality or plurality many entities is this a real thing which are experiencing or the plurality is an appearance and non-duality is the reality that's what um god rap is trying to prove that non-duality is the reality and plurality of duality is an appearance so i've given four theories of consciousness material universe object produces consciousness that's science consciousness produces its objects that's um religion theistic religion god produces the universe consciousness and object are parallel realities sankhya yoga some form of buddhism they're parallel realities and consciousness alone is the reality there's a non-dualism advaita vedanta um in a broader sense kashmirishivism vishishtadvaita about four or five non-dual traditions in india but strictly speaking advaita vedanta strictly speaking all right let's start today no question no hold on yeah but hold on to the question we'll see later don't worry this will this has a segue what we're going to discuss actually very interestingly is about this topic what was going on we are on the third chapter of the mandukya karika and we were on verse 17 18 19 we are done with one verse 20 today right yes what was going on gora pada is trying to prove non-duality advaita through reasoning experience and also quotations from the upanishads now in these verses what's going on right now he is going on the offensive not just trying to establish non-duality but attacking duality so he is pointing out certain things what has he pointed out so far in the 17th verse in dualism the problem is fanaticism there is what is called ragadvaisha likes and dislikes dualism means here he is talking about by dualism he means the dualistic religion specifically he's talking about the ancient indian schools niyaya vaisheshika sankhya yoga purum imam so there are dualistic approaches but it equally applies to other dualistic approaches to the polytheistic religions or the the abrahamic religions like judaism christianity islam zoroastrianism all of them they're all dualistic religions what happens notice that there is an enormous variety of views and they are they are mutually incompatible if shiva we are chivalrous if shiva that guard with the moon on the forehead sitting in the in the kailasha if that is god literally that's the form of god then vishnu on his cosmic serpent in the vast see then that cannot be both cannot be true at the same time is god with form and is it a male form if that is true then it cannot have a female form so each approach is contradicting the other and the it develops a rag advaita raga dosha means attachment for one's point of view or one's religion one's culture and a distaste or an aversion to it and modern neurosciences also proved it because we have what is called um a very strong tribal instinct in in group and out group us versus them doesn't matter wherever you are wherever you're born into you're born into the the staunchest muslim in in saudi arabia if that was that person was born in um say in in some household in say midwest america or something in a very staunch evangelical household would be would become an equally staunch evangelic evangelical christian so depending on our culture our background this is the accident of birth we we grow into a particular culture in religion and because of our our basic wiring we have a strong us versus them so it becomes whatever it is it becomes this is right this is mine i will defend it and all the resources my emotions my intellect my everything is devoted to that pursuit to prove this is right and the other is wrong somehow this is better the other is worse or very exclusive exclusive this alone is right other is totally wrong and either in the more ancient forms of hinduism zoroastrianism judaism the old religions we are right and the other is just excluded in the newer religions like christianity islam we are right other is wrong and others not excluded others should be included intruded means not as they are they must be transformed into as we are so um christianity islam they claim to be universal they're universal only in one sense unlike the older religions like judaism or the older forms of zoroastrian or zoroastrianism old hinduism there is no exclusion there rather it's open you can and you should become a muslim or a christian the jew does not say that you cannot should become a jew no stay away the ancient hindu says exactly the same thing the brahmins he said oh i really like this your religion i want to become a brahmin too of course not there's no question and don't you dare come near me that's the exclusiveness of the older religions the newer religion is of course you must become a muslim or a christian you better become a muslim or a christian otherwise you're going to burn in hell afterwards and in this world also i'm going to cut off your head if you don't become this is the result of dualism notice the tragedy of it they are all religions of love a dualistic religion has to be a religion of love why because it's religion god exists and i exist and there's a separation we are not the same we are separation vast separation then what could be the relationship between man and god the individual being and god inevitably it has to be one of love surrender faith devotion what else could it be so these religions of love within court are the sources of hatred you might see how soon a religion and they are genuinely they preach love and inclusion and all of that faith devotion and yet when it comes to the other if the other is not accepting you immediately see how that love turns into hatred notice the um that all the fanaticism in the world is from dualistic religions notice that all the violence in the in the which is inspired by religion of course for political and whatever but if it's inspired by religion then it's from a dualistic religion whether it is um islam or christianity or some whatever it is from there and it's not surprising that which is based on emotion immediately love can easily turn into hatred so gorda pada points out paras param dhanti they clash with each other but we have no conflict with any of them we means the non-dualist has no conflict with any of them why why then why does the non-dualist have no conflict i remarked last time that um politics is possible in the personal i'm quoting somebody somebody told me very nice politics is possible possible in the personal there can be no politics in the impersonal can you ha you can have a christian religion hindu religion and muslim religion but can you have christian science hindu science and muslim science you can't that's silly why why is it silly because science is impersonal and these philosophies say advaita vedanta for example impersonal it do you have to be a hindu to be a non-dualist no it makes no difference you don't even have to believe in god it's possible that without believing in god also you can be a non-dualist you can be in one sense you can be an atheist and a non-dualist too so a buddhist can be an atheist or an agnostic and be a non-dualist also so we have no conflict but how do they manage this no conflict trick i'll i'll tell you we'll come to it the way they manage it is that we have in non-dualism that there is doctrine of two truths the ultimate reality is the non-dual reality brahman alone and it appears in this world as god world and individual so in the world of appearance there's duality and what and none of these dualities and dualities are multiple none of these dualities have any conflict with the background non-duality why are there multiple dualities why are there multiple dualities do you remember philosophically speaking in any kind of knowledge there must be a knower source of knowledge and the knowable do you remember the triputi pramata pramana pramaya knower source of knowledge and knowable and depending on the middle term the source of knowledge the knower will get different kinds of knowledge if i see i'll get one kind of knowledge about this room if you close your eyes and hear you will get another kind of knowledge about this space you will hear only sounds i will see only sights and if you try to say that i am talking about reality reality consists of multiple colors and shapes and sizes you will say no no reality consists of various sounds who is right both of us we are seeing different for aspects of reality why because we are using different sources of knowledge pramana is different now how do you how does this apply to our present problem because if my pramana source of knowledge about the reality is the quran and yours is the bible and his is the gita or the zenda vesta or something and each describes the dualistic framework in a different way there is bound to be difference they cannot be reconciled but what does non-dualism say non-dualism says the knower the knowable and the source of knowledge all of them appear in one brahman so all the theories about the reality which you have they all are acceptable they are all acceptable at that level of reality that level of reality means transactional reality a transactional reality the vehicle world where we are sitting at this this world um you can have multiple theories but from the fun and they are all clashing with each other but from the underlying paramarthika that means the absolute reality that is brahman from that point of view they're all equally true which is another way of saying advaitan will say they're all equally false which is not a kind thing to say but we understand in what sense but advaitan is not actually denying them they say all of that will work does religion have a role to play in non-dual realization yes if you are a devout person if you have devotion to god materialism is less mind is purer conduct is moral is that that is much a much more suitable state for non-dual realization than a person who is engrossed in the senses and for whom this reality is only reality so therefore religion helps in non-dual reality if you're a worshiper of vishnu or shiva or kali or all of that is useful for the ultimate non-dual realization and today you can extend it a non-dualistic can easily extend it to if you're a worshiper of allah or jehovah or the father in heaven very good all of them take you towards are very good they're very useful but if you do not have that a non-dual basis if you just stay with that at the at the level at this level then they are all clashing with each other i hope that part is clear the next verse said this is possible only for the do you remember he said only for the non-dualist it's possible for the dualist it is not possible because for the dualist this world is dualistic and the ultimate reality is also dualistic there is no difference between two levels of truth for the non-dualistic this world of dualism which we experience is called transactional reality and accepted as such but underlying it is a deeper or or a higher state of um non-dualism in consciousness studies they would call it a hot higher order theory so there is a uh a deeper level of non-dualism from that point of view they are all equally true they are equally applicable so for the non-dualist paramatica the absolute reality is non-dual and vehicle all dualistic theories are acceptable but the dualist cannot see this the dualist cannot say this because for the dualist this is also dualistic and whatever heaven the vaikuntha the abode of vishnu or krishna or christ that's also dualistic there's also a difference there difference is maintained there so there is no possibility of reconciliation at least we can give a place for a dualistic theory logically speaking philosophically speaking the dualistic approaches cannot give us a place that's why you find the dualistic schools of india um division of various vaishnava schools down to this this day they have two kinds of enemies each dualistic school has two kinds of enemies or rivals one is the other dualistic schools we'll say no no vishnu is superior to shiva and so on or shiva is superior to vishnu and so on and there's another kind of enemy the non-dualist so non-dualist are the worst of the worst from a dualistic perspective they are called where we are called mayavadi that means the teachers of maya or illusion and and all the followers are warned to stay away from us we apparently spoil everybody socrates was called a spoiler of the youth the corrupter of the youth why he was forced to take yes that's because we don't believe anything that you must say basically we don't believe about that no it's just the opposite duality we don't believe it no we do it it's the other way around you see we don't think we believe it you know they feel they think they feel deeply threatened you see whatever they say as i was saying until now whatever they say we say it's true at the transactional level god exists is it true or not we say yes within brackets ultimately no but but at this level yes because at this level if you are walking and talking around and driving and going to have a cup of coffee all dualistic activities why can't you worship god what what has poor god done if you can go out and have dinner in a restaurant why can't you go out to church or temple of course you can so at that level the advaitan is not being covertly supercilious or something at this level it's perfectly all right and had written makes a further point this is the only level that you are talking about you dualists are talking about only this level the other level the the paramatic or the absolute level is something that we are introducing to the conversation you have never talked about it so whatever level you are talking about a lawyer would love this distinction whatever level you are talking about the advaita is comfortable with it and what we are talking about you are not talking about it you don't have a theory of of the the paramatical level so why are you against us but they are against us because it it makes them flounder about they don't know how to respond to that if you say she was superior or vishnu superior each side has arguments theological arguments but if you say both are appearances of a deeper underlying reality no no no no which which i am by the way that is too much one is the reason why it terrifies them it seems that the world you're seeing this world which is very dear to them it's it's falsified you are saying this god you know we are not falsifying god we are saying there is a higher reality beyond god and the worst sin of all you are saying i and god are one reality that's the worst but not at we are not saying at this level the little wave is equal to the tsunami wave no we are not saying that the wave is equal to the ocean no we are saying as water both wave and ocean are nothing other than water that's what we are saying now let us go ahead yes be enlightened do a list the strict non-dualist would say only the non-violence can be enlightened can i do lsp enlightened of course what is he enlightened about what is the dualist enlightened about well ultimately then duelist becomes enlightened we would realize that the non-dual reality is the truth that would be enlightenment and and the thing is the no the positive thing is the the dualistic beliefs that the dualist held earlier the non-dualist would say that they are all helpful they bought him to the realization that ultimately i and god are one how it works is step one is god exists you move from agnosticism or atheism to theism and depending upon your culture god could be father in heaven or shiva i'd be ahead shivaratri and then you progress further you have an ishta devata chosen from talking vedantic perspective chosen form of god since all dualistic forms of god are true you can take any form it's not there are many gods it's that one god but multiple forms and names you take the one god saved i'm saying how it works in india in vedanta you take say your guru teaches you about shiva the form of shiva sitting in meditation and and gives you a mantra om nama shivaya suppose then you are supposed to visualize and meditate and repeat the mantra and do all the things a devout shy bite is supposed to do go to the temple observe shivaratri maybe go on pilgrimage things like that so there's a whole it's like a whole religion it is a whole religion itself as we progress in this path what happens is the devout shaivite realizes my shiva whom i found in the shiva temple and in my heart i find i find it the same shiva in everybody i find this a shame shiva in all beings that's the next step even that is not non-dualism then one more step forward all forms of god all forms of religion are not nothing other than shiva and then finally it becomes shiva alone is the only reality the material world all beings different forms of divinities all of them are manifestations in sheep or appearances in shiva shiva alone is the reality i am non-different from shiva then you can honestly say rupa hashivo hamshibo that is non-duality um two answers here one strictly speaking technically speaking if you ask god or power no you have to come to the wednesday class but practically speaking if you look at the history of religions and their history of spiritual seekers all over the world and if you take them at their word whether it's a shaivite or a shakhtar or worship of the divine mother or a vaishnava or a christian or a muslim there are records of non-dual realizations across religions so it really doesn't have to be through this particular way that in only in the wednesday class in manhattan then only you get enlightened no a spiritual seeker comes to this realization they have come to this realization across religions across civilizations across time and this this would be right why would it have to be so narrow that you have to come through it only through this expression in fact one of the great disciples of shankaracharya is suresh for acharya he makes a comment i think in his great classic naishkara city probably i'm not i don't remember i'll forget the original sanskrit but the meaning is this therefore the great conclusion is through whatever means one comes to this non-dual realization that should be accepted as true and good it doesn't have to be this kind of teaching it could be some other kind of teaching it could be a spontaneous awakening like ramana maharshi or somebody it could be through buddhism a non-theistic system it could be through christian mysticism like meister eckhart and many others could be through sufi mysticism how who am i to say that's not because they didn't turn up for vedanta class that's not true no they've actually experienced what we are talking about all right yes i think these answers will fit my question my question is good this my question would touch everything conscious to your consciousness and he used to worship god when they asked do you know the answer he said i don't know but his equation lots of people are already deserved but still they are trying to find out in this get our answer he used to worship god dualism also he had pure conservation so strong he created the theory and nobody could understand that somehow in that case what we should do the same thing that pure consciousness because of his pure consciousness we don't know the answer because he was dualist he used to worship narayan and everything all the time day and night and he created so many things mathematical world still couldn't find answer and he himself said i don't know but some are already answered in that case what would be our answer conscious mind experience he might have experienced in his past life we don't know our answer is come back to the text itself all right let's go on at this point also if you say why does this pluralistic universe appear in a non-dualist awareness in brahman which is non-dual why does the pluralistic universe appear at all the 19th verse said maya bid so here advaitan will bring in maya and what is maya don't ask now but you can ask or one week hence i have a talk on maya coming up that's probably the most difficult topic i've ever taken up in my life so i'm going to take up that topic on not this sunday but the sunday after that now let us go ahead 20th verse attack on the dualists he says of the bhava here means the turya brahman existence consciousness place the one consciousness behind waking dreaming and deep sleep in the paradigm of the mandukya thuriya that bhava which is ajata which is uncreated which is never born remember gaurav padha's whole approach in this chapter towards non-duality is brahman is neither a cause nor an effect god is a cause the world is an effect brahman is neither cause nor effect because brahman has not really created a world see about this world you can say only two things if the non-dual reality is the ultimate reality and we have a dualistic experience of a world you can ask the question how did this many come from the one how did this dualistic universe come from the non-dual only two answers are possible really that non-dual reality produced a dualistic world in that case that non-dual reality is a cause and the world is an effect that's one option the other option is it didn't really produce it's an apparent manifestation it appears just as a reflection appears in a pool a movie is seen on a screen water appears in a mirage a snake appears in the rope not really produced so apparent creation and real creation these are the two options and the not the dualist says real creation god created the universe god is the cause universe is the effect and the non-dualist says apparent creation apparent creation means brahman alone exists unchanged completely or in godhapath's words ajah unborn it does not create a universe so brahman alone exists and the individual beings and this physical universe are appearances in brahman brahman alone appears as the individual you or i or him or her and the world which we experience and none of it is actually physically and none of it is really created so brahman is not really a cause and there is not really an effect brahman is beyond cause and effect that is called ajaha uncreated unborn and he says the dualists say the dualistic theories all say the immortal unborn brahman i said brahman is jati mitchanti they want that it should it is created universe is born or brahman becomes a cause and the universe is an effect that we individual beings jivas are actually produced from brahman it's like saying no no no the rope actually created a snake the rope is looking at it looks like a snake it instead of saying it looks like no it actually there was a rope and it's now become a snake that's not true advaitan says it's not that at one time we were all brahmana immortal and now we have become individual beings jivas and with a lot of spiritual practice and plenty of vedanta classes we'll all become the immortal brahman again we think we may smile at it now but that's the majority idea of religion in the in the world today the great themes in the religions of the world the fall of man it's there in every religion of the world that there was a perfect state and from that we have come down to an imperfect state and then we must get back to it again and this whole spiritual journey a cycle which we are going through there are two ways of looking at it one is yes this is true there was some kind of perfection the garden of eden in paradise or whatever we have fallen from it and we are on our journey back that's why we're it's so obvious we are suffering it's all on unfortunate but there is some hope there is perfection heaven god waiting for us that's one the non-dualist perspective is that no that perfection that non-duality that infinite existence consciousness bliss is right here it is what we are misperceiving as this imperfect existence you are it already you don't have to seek for liberation you are liberated you just have to know that you are liberated you have to realize it and see it for what it is so he says the dualists of the immortal ajatasya bhava the immortal brahman they want that immortal brahman to be born he says of the immortal unborn absolute how can you expect it to become mortal who is mortal individual beings so how can that one become this one the difference is incredible jaati means birth but remember the six fold changes we talked about it all the time the traditional sanskrit is six fold changes shadvikara birth and having been born well not existing earlier comes into existence first is jaati birth second is asti comes into existence third is growth deteriorates ages seconds and then sixth is nasyati dies and that is true of the bodies that is true of the individual beings we see it all the time not true of the infinite existence consciousness place not true of turia and he says turiya is you're saying the not the dualist says that one is born as this individual being or this individual bring is created from that one how can the two be the same moving on to the next one why cannot be why is it not possible why is it not possible 21. [Music] the immortal can never become mortal nor can the mortal ever become immortal why not nothing ever changes its intrinsic nature this is it prakrit the intrinsic nature of an entity is never changed fire never becomes cold and iced so i'm not saying ice cannot burn ice can actually burn but the fire never becomes cold it's the intrinsic nature of something if it's intrinsically immortal beyond change how can it be born how can it age how can it die and if it is born ages and dies how can it be changeless it is changing if a changeless entity becomes changeful if the immortal theory is born as a mortal being and it becomes immortal again what prevents it from being born again and becoming a mortal being again so this is what is said you see let's put it this way the whole of the spiritual quest is that we mortal beings we are seeking to overcome death we are seeking immortality that is the quest the mortal being is seeking immortality now there are only two possibilities only two possibilities does a mortal being become what is the goal immortality so does a mortal being become immortal or does the immortal become immortal neither neither can the mortal become immortal cannot why not intrinsic nature cannot be changed mortal means subject to change if we are changeful beings can we become changeless no because if we if we are literally intrinsic nature is changefulness it cannot become changeless and if you're changeless beings already can we become changeless beings it's a ridiculous question you need not become you are already that why would you become anything else you are already that what would you become in both cases answer is no see the the verse it's a simple verse but worth thinking it has tremendous implications for religion and spirituality the immortal never becomes a mortal the mortal never becomes immortal intrinsic nature of an entity can never be changed this is the verse then think about it the whole idea of religion is that we are obviously mortal beings are wrong what is obvious need not be correct and obviously mortal beings now why i'm born i can show you my birth certificate and i'm getting older and one day you will be showing somebody else my death certificate so i'm subject to birth and death i am and religion tells me that there is god and heaven and and hereafter and i can become i can overcome death the whole human project you know we might say what's the human project all of us we're trying to basically overcome death i mentioned this earlier the denial of death earns becker a pulitzer prize-winning book this is basically our major our fundamental urge is to um is to overcome death we're trying to find a solution for death you might say no that's not mine a philosopher might think about that but my solution is my project is to pay my rent and hold on to my job and pay my insurance and you think about that paying my rent holding on to the job and paying insurance is for what for for living exactly every one of our all our attempts whether you're eating a cookie or doing meditation for attaining god realization it's all meant for one thing we just don't bring it to the forefront that's what becker calls denial of death in a bigger question the whole project of spirituality in indian philosophies can be put in this way how to overcome death the great verse which upanishadic verse which swami vivekananda was fond of reciting here in the west when he would teach here uh shrinvantuvishwa amrita putra listening children of immortal bliss notice the words immortal bliss amrita even the gods who are in heaven because in hinduism even the heavens are have are subject to end that you can come back from those states there are very high states you can come back from them i have realized that infinite being what kind is it what what type of infinite being have you realized aditya varnam blazing forth with light light means not a mod this mortal light but light of consciousness awareness awareness itself blazing forth with consciousness um forever beyond darkness darkness means limitation sorrow death suffering there is something beyond that and if you realize it what happens by really realizing that one goes beyond death truly forever any other path science technology entertainment politics nothing else will serve this purpose every other human effort is productive of small gains and losses but the ultimate project you cannot do it by any other way and this has been the promise of religion it's not vedanta it's every religion in all history ultimately the core promise is a solution to the problem of death even the most primitive tribal belief systems they all dealt with death and afterlife i also mentioned that recently i was reading this book by a french philosopher luke ferry the history of thought the history of western thought where i was surprised and happy to see he says what is the purpose of all these uh philosophical systems that we have had in the west starting he starts with the greek thought then comes to christianity then comes to modernity then comes to postmodernity and stops there but what's the purpose behind it and i was so happy and interested to see he says salvation what is the way of overcoming death i was happy because then it makes the two projects the same and you would expect that you're all human beings ultimately we are concerned with the same reality you might say were you expecting something else because we have been taught differently when we were at we were learning philosophy i remember our western philosophy teacher coming and saying western philosophy in eastern philosophy are different eastern philosophy is darshana seeing the ultimate reality darshan literally means seeing but western philosophy is thinking philosophy a love of wisdom sophia's wisdom philos philosophy's love it's a love of wisdom and we also took down notes yes so this is different this is driven into our minds and the more i read the english language philosophers and that's what i was limited to british american philosophers it seemed to be so it's about thinking about but it's only this french philosopher who revealed to me says this thinking philosophically about issues that's what's in critical thinking that's how philosophy is defined he says nonsense critical theory thinking is required in every subject why philosophy alone then what is philosophy and he gives a beautiful answer which makes the two eastern and western approaches exactly coincide he says philosophy is theory theory where the word theory comes from and theoria the original latin meaning um theos and orao which means i see the ultimate reality exact meaning of darshan arou means to see and see or theos means the ultimate reality divide the divinities i see the ultimate realities it's the literal meaning of darshana the meaning of the philosophy in both approaches eastern and western is the same and the goal is also the same overcoming death so in all the tradition mostly the dualistic religions remember here the attack is on the dualistic religions the dualistic religions they say this is attainable immortality is attainable how you mortal being you fallen being you sinful being you will attain to a sinless deathless an immortal state you'll be raised and made sublime how when you go to when you go to heaven look at the two words go space when time that immortality is separated from you by time and space there will come a time it's not now the millennium or when after when you go to heaven so there will come a time when you the mortal being then you will be immortal there will come us a place not this sinful earth but a pure heaven and this concept is there in all religions all dualistic religions whether hindu or christian or islamic or whatever hebrew jewish it's there what non-dualism it says is it's an impossible project it's it's a fool's errand why if you are saying that the mortal will become the immortal in the future in some other place impossible the intrinsic nature of a thing cannot be changed what will become immortal the mortal body will become immortal it will be burned to ashes or it will rot in the grave where will it become immortal what will the mortal mind become immortal whatever does that mean it's constantly dying what means which means it's constantly changing a moment to moment and the slightest drop of blood sugar it paints what immortality is there for the mind then the dualist will say no no no you're putting words into my mouth we never said the body will become immortal we never said the mind will become immortal it's the the immortal soul in us which will become just a minute you said immortal soul will become immortal do you see the silliness of that point if it is immortal it is immortal what will it become if it changes it becomes non-mar it becomes mortal then all right so what are we saying here notice what advaita is driving towards is if you are already immortal then only immortality can be promised to you if you are really mortal no immortality can be promised to you but if you're already immortal then what remains to be done nothing remains to be done then should we all pack up and go then the 530 train no the problem is still there even if we are immortal we don't feel it we don't get the benefit from it we are still suffering as mortal beings so advaitha this non-dualism reduces the whole spiritual problem to a problem of knowledge of realization not a problem of doing something we are making some vast changes in our understanding of religion remember nothing will be disturbed finally but we have changed our approach to it we are not overthrowing religion if you stop now and go out now religion is gone you walk out of here an atheist but no we shall reconstruct religion again we are doing it now what are we doing we have to realize our immortal nature that i am this immortal reality this this one consciousness beyond the waker dreamer and deep sleeper in which the waker dreamer and deep sleeper experience their particular fields of experience they come and go i am the unchanging consciousness we have to realize this what is required is knowledge our problem is ignorance of this reality what is required is knowledge of this reality so spirituality becomes a path of knowledge i'm not entirely following up god or father many of you may be disturbed by this but don't be disturbed everything else will fall in place now so it becomes a path of knowledge the brahma sutras the the aphorisms of brahman notice the first sutra brahma sutras hence therefore an inquiry into brahman notice what it says an inquiry jigyasa jigyasa means in sanskrit gathu mitcha the desire to know an enquiry what does an enquiry produce knowledge does it do anything no it just produces knowledge all it does is give you knowledge why an inquiry into brahman hence therefore he could have said hence therefore the worship of brahman hence therefore the bhakti of brahman hence therefore the meditation on brahman hence therefore the service of brahman karma doing good works no it says an inquiry into brahman why because knowledge alone is the one thing needful in that beautiful verse veda mahantam i have known that infinite being it did not say i have worshipped that infinite being i have loved that infinite being i have meditated upon that infinite being i have known that infinite being also hidden in this is something interesting how can knowledge help me if i know there's an infinite being which is immortal okay you're talking about an immortal brahman i know there's an immortal brahman i'm still mortal i'm going to die on a few days later i'm known good for brahman what about me the promise is knowledge will make me immortal which means the only way by knowing something i become immortal knowing something immortal i become immortal is that if that thing is i myself if i realize that i am immortal that is what is hidden here it's the story of the lion cub which swami vivekananda was fond of telling in this country little lion cub grows up i mean its mother dies and it goes up among the sheep and as it grows into a big line it still eats grass and bleeds like the sheep thinks that it is a lamb and then another big line was hunting cat thing is mystified by this huge land walking in a flock of sheep and catches hold of it and drags it off and it's scared it's bleeding let me go sir are you scaring me and this big old lion says stop bleeting you are not sheep you are a lion like me and look at your face in the river and look at my face and look at your face you're the same and roar like me and so it takes one or two tries but the sheep line realizes i'm not a lamb i am a lion we have we have lived so long among the among the sheep what is the shape here the five senses matter a changing body we think we are that body deteriorating oh i'm falling apart it gets face gets wrinkles good let it get more wrinkles i have got wrinkles it's so bad no it isn't the better the sooner body is skinny or fat i am skinny or fat no you are not how can consciousness be skinny or fat two percent consciousness like my milk whole consciousness skin consciousness no it's it's just about it's absolutely nothing to do with you i remember this person i met an israeli lady she said she knows this monk a traditional non-dualist monk in the him in the himalayas in haridwar so she sometimes calls him for advice nowadays you can contact the himalayan monk over i mean he of course doesn't live in the mountains he lives in the city there in haridwar and she was a little mystified she had a problem something was fierce feeling depressed about something unhappiness and she called and he said to her she told me that she just said ignore it [Music] it's an important problem he should ignore it the thing is i understand what he where is coming from he's coming from a strict non-dualistic perspective from a strict non-dwellers perspective our worst problems are sheer nonsense if you are in a dream and a terrible thing is happening a person is misbehaving with you and the the plumbing is leaking and there is a snow storm coming in all of that what would you say to this person who come comes with this list of complaints to you what would you say to this person ignore it it's a dream ignore it yes but that's too much to take for a person who doesn't have the learning behind it the paradigm behind how can i do it a real a series of huge real problems in my life i'm getting old my finances are bad i am lonely my health is failing my insurance doesn't work it's all falling apart the non-dualist would say that monk in the himalaya would say let it all fall apart let everything go get worse and worse and worse you will realize very soon you are not affected in the least you're still there afterwards yeah so that doesn't make good sense let it not you have got enough of good sense and it's got you into this position this is the trouble it's got us into so it's a very radical philosophy the mortal can never become immortal we are immortal you don't have to become immortal just have to realize that you're immortal our knowledge our realization that's what vedanta is all advaita vegan non-dualism is all about now then what about the practices we don't have to do anything here don't be mistaken be careful here many people think that oh now i know i'll stop my meditation i'll stop all the good works that i'm doing charity and but you will not stop eating you will not stop breathing i remember this is funny you know when i was supposed to come to the united states i was teaching in the in the monastery there to the novices i was teaching the novices so it was announced that i will go server priyanka is posted to hollywood so you're going to go to hollywood and then the swami in charge of the the school the monastic school he said so that we are making the plan for the next year so should i put your name down as one of the teachers because there's still six months for you to go with the visa and everything so should i put your name down or not and uh and he was scared of asking the secretary general the general secretary yes or no which way he was a nervous kind of man this he was a senior swami said okay i'll ask i'll ask so i went and asked the swami i took an appointment and i went and bowed down like he's like really the high of the high so um swami this is the situation should i teach i asked do i have to teach and he said do you have to eat [Laughter] his answer he meant it in a very simple sense not all vedantic philosophy he said if you're going to eat here you're going to work here and that's all the problem of course a very short meeting he says if you're not contributing then you get out the gates are open so that that was his approach and that's all sorts of problems no philosophy required all this i'm giving an explanation he just said three words do you have to eat very cooperating yeah i'd have to eat are you going to eat um in bengal it's even more sharp i said the swami maharaj and his answer was kabiki in hindi that's right we don't say that we're going to stop eating sleeping no so if you're not going to stop all of that why are you going to stop your spiritual activities how will it help if i'm already immortal how will it my meditation and puja and all of that help it will help in this way this is the real purpose of all spiritual practices it removes the obstacles on the path of non-dual enlightenment it prepares the mind for non-dual enlightenment we have pushed so much garbage into our and our psyche that it prevents us from seeing the truth it purifies the psyche here is the meaning of swami vivekananda's beautiful teaching inspired talks all his best teachings are condensed into that he says just a cryptic line those are like one paragraph one line like that one cryptic line yes you need to switch it it's a dream you have to ignore it so a simple line he says swamiji kante says all we can do is polish the mirror you just have to polish the mirror so all spiritual practices the point of all spiritual practices is to polish the mirror what is the mirror the mirror of the mind in which will flash the realization that i am brahmana so all spiritual practices are relevant it will not make you immortal it will give you it will enable you to see that you are already martyred it will not make you into god that's why that sentence which i like repeating so much the person never becomes free you the person will never become free you will become free of the person what does it mean in these terms that mortal aspect the jiva aspect of ourselves we'll become free of that we'll realize we were never that we will never be able to turn that into immortality the next verse okay just hold on all right ask the questions i think you also had a question yeah i'll come to you so immortality is discussed and it's it's said that that's the problem of kind but don't you think sooner or later science will come up with a solution to death will science come up with the solution to death already the upanishad says there is no other way there's no other way so you think it's not even possible that you can live longer maybe you can um preserve this body and then transfer your your thoughts into another maybe better body or something like that science fiction but then hinduism would say that's already happening you're transferring it from one body to another infinitely you don't have to put all the trouble in it's already done for you all the technology is invented by god and you are going through it the point is to stop that vedanta is to stop that from happening it's happening automatically auto payment they say no how do you unsubscribe from this divine service somewhere sometime somewhere sometimes we don't recall signing up but it's done it's done someday somewhere you clicked on something and it's done and every lifetime you are shunted into a new body perfect service you can't get off the ferry wheel that's the problem how do you get to get off the road yeah it was it was fun at the beginning now you're getting dizzy and sick of it but it won't stop it goes on and on so the problem is not how to live on and on you are living on or not vedanta says how to make it stop how to stop there's a beautiful story swami madhava nandaji he was the president of our order he had he had come here to new york many many decades ago he stayed in the east side center and hilanji was his friend he had a brain tumor in those days we didn't have good hospitals there so he had come for an operation here he was the president of the order he came the operation was done and he was recovering they were physiotherapists and all helping him out in that center so these beautiful stories are you can find in the book called uh six lighted windows written by an american swami swami yoga shanandaji he was a nurse a male nurse who helped the swami to recover so he had written and he became a monk later on but he's written his reminiscence is very beautiful so he says one day we were all sitting and discussing at that time the great hot topic for discussion in the early 60s late 60s i think hot topic of discussion was the birth control pill so whether it is good or bad it should be used or not the debates have all disappeared now but at that time it was a debate people were discussing it hotly so some of the devotees were sitting and discussing and they didn't of course think that swami would be interested in such a thing so some are far some are against um then the swami said from his passing by he said oh i am i am for for for it then they were surprised so it's so swamy you are you are interested in this you are you are for butt control he said yes i am against birth and death and reward them the whole of spirituality advaita vedante is birth control basically it stops the entire cycle of birth and death basically this limited existence to experience a little and to be crushed out of existence and to come back again and to be snuffed out again and to come back again this thing if you suppose someone does not believe in this huge cosmic cycle of birth and just we just see this one life somebody said that's all right in a hindu context or an indian context but what about an american context people coming from a jewish or a catholic or a muslim background or an atheist they don't believe in all this all right the core idea still applies overcoming suffering and finding true lasting peace and joy if you believe in one life also it's also all right overcoming suffering is the point of it all overcoming death by by this it would mean overcoming that this fear of this death one prince asked so i'm vivekananda in europe but i have everything what can you teach me he said i can teach you how to die die means not to commit suicide it's to how to face death and absolute equanimity and happiness and peace and and makes no difference to me now it's just a comment what about compassion the the swami that's the greatest compassion that's the greatest compassion he's not ignoring it he's asking you to ignore it the moment he asks you to ignore it ignorant means the pain the suffering the depression immediately a gap opens up between you and the pain you are not defined and limited by the pain you existed before the pain you will continue to exist when the pain is not even a memory it's forgotten forever even now there are times when you don't remember or experience the pain when you when you dream when you're in deep sleep or even when you're awake then moment to moment pain is not always there constantly when you become aware of it oh it's so bad so one swami vedanta says between the eternal and the non-eternal the immortal and the mortal there can be no relationship a very interesting thing i the immortal seem to have married the mortal no there is no relationship you have deluded yourself what a great whatever what up i will not say a wonderful thing what a stunning thing to say because everything that we know is mortal people are mortal they're born and they die which means ultimately between you the immortal soul and this mortal people there's no relationship mean i'm not related to these people in the deepest sense you are one with them in what sense are you one with them they as the soul the pure consciousness atman you as the atman the pure consciousness it's one country you are exactly you and them are one but you have no relation to that body it has come you're experiencing it it will go away you have no relationship with the person personality also that has come it is changing it will change and go away else so the mortal and the immortal have no relationship it is the greatest blessing it is the greatest compassion the whole of the whole of buddha's project is it not compassion it starts from compassion people are suffering how do we overcome suffering and advaita vedanta gives you the basis for compassion how am how can i be compassionate to others because i'm one with them they are nothing other than me yes again i will say it seems to be like that but advaita is just the opposite it is now that we are lonely as the poet says you are like an island cut off from everybody else by uh by the surrounding ocean what is the only way of getting in touch with a person no way actually no way we all live within our own minds literally speaking even the persons you are seeing friend parents husband wife enemies lovers all of them actually if you think the fact the fact is these persons you are experiencing you're experiencing them in your mind person as they are outside you have no contact with them at all do you understand what i'm saying exactly literally speaking a scientist would agree what are you experiencing a reconstruction by the neurons in the brain which is presented to your mind you are dealing with phantoms of your own imagination some data is coming from outside science would say science is very realistic it says there is a person outside so light is reflected from that body it comes into your eyes the sound of that voice comes into the ears but all of that is ultimately converted into what sound light all of them are converted into little electrical impulses in the brain when it reaches you what you are hearing is not the original voice of the person what you are seeing is not the original body of the person what you're touching is not the hand of the person when it reaches you this is pure physiology no vedanta involved here it reaches you it is the product of little electrical impulses in your own brain nothing else where are you aren't you lonely you're forever cut off from the universe in your own mind you're like a person living in a virtual reality seems to be populated with so many people there's nobody there except you that is the absence of compression let me finish this let me let me finish this let me finish this whereas so this is this is real loneliness we think we are so happy we are so in the midst of so many people no you might as well be happy in the presence of your favorite soap opera um characters in watching a tv show with so many people it's a tv show there's nobody there it's like like that here whereas advaita vedanta says you are actually the one consciousness in all beings you're literally one with everybody that's why i've seen true non-dualist vedantes they're never lonely they're never lonely they're comfortable when they're in a crowd of people they're comfortable when they're left alone i met this uh monk high up in the himalayas who was staying in a little cottage all year long i had gone in the peak season where there was it was not there was no snow it was like pilgrims were coming and there's very beautiful and those little children would come and play he had seen their that monk had seen their parents as little children coming they would come in the summer and play in the ashram and he they liked him because he was like very mysterious he have this hair you know have you seen the lord of the rings so gandalf the why what is the name by gandalf the magician the white exactly like that wizard so white cloak up to his ankles and next thing and uh beard much longer than gandalf's beard it goes up up to here and this um the locks of hair he had to keep it tied up because they went down below his uh knees so he and not a big real thing and the kids would like they loved him they would just stare up at him and he was a tall powerfully built figure so they would run around scamp around shouting and playing in the ashram and i said you're so happy with everybody here coming and playing but in the winter when nobody's around there are a few aesthetics left some in their caves some in their huts and the snows are up to your knees and um even the food places where you get food they are all shut down you have got only your own store of food to cook alone in that icy whiteness all around for six months in a year what do you do then his answer was very nice in hindi he told me he said i am happy now swami and then i am happier and hindi said it was punjabi actually he said at that time i'm even happier one swami told me who liked me very much you know he said you know i'm so happy to see you but remember when you're not here i don't miss you so this is not loneliness but aloneness with the capital a you can say in loneliness is here in manhattan enough in the icy peaks of the himalayas doesn't know loneliness yeah that's a blissful it's a very peaceful state that one thing goes to another it reminds me of pleasure peace bliss in sanskrit the difference is this just worth contemplating sukha shanti ananda what is sukha what is pleasure contact of the senses with their objects with a desired object to see the thing which you want to see a movie a person a place that gives you a burst of pleasure it can actually be measured in by neuroscientists the burst of dopamine and everything sukha but it gives you a burst of pleasure it's mysterious because there's one component in the whole thing which is mysterious which is consciousness so it gives you a burst of pleasure the same thing can be replicated in a machine it wouldn't get that pleasure because consciousness is not there because pleasure is an experience so it's a burst of pleasure sukha your favorite cookie you put it on your tongue whole process will immediately take place and the taste is presented to you the consciousness a burst of pleasure comes a flash of pleasure in the mind it's called sukha definition sense object desired sense object and sense contact vishaya indriya sang yoga so desired sense object what you like and that comes in contact with your senses that's sukha and there might be derivatives it might not actually come in contact with your senses you might think about it it also can give you pleasure so pleasure what is shanti the cessation of all contacts pleasure pleasurable and painful when you shut down the senses you sit in meditation or its closest natural equivalent is deep sleep imagine deep sleep how much we like deep sleep we may not like dreaming we may not like a disturbed sleep but everybody likes deep sleep everybody what pleasure is there what variety is there in deep sleep the least variety no variety at all what entertainment is there which beloved person is there in deep sleep even your most beloved body is also not there in deep sleep what are your most pleasurable activities what excitement is there in deep sleep absolutely none that's the beauty of deep sleep we like it that is called shanti that is the natural form but the actual the form in in day to day life is the cessation of pleasure and pain is peace the background of pleasure and pain when the senses and the objects do not come in contact imagine a state where no sight no sound no smell no taste no touch pain pleasure nothing just calmness abiding there that is called shanti peace then what is bliss beyond that ananda beyond that peace you become aware of a presence a devotee will become aware of god beyond that peace it actually happens and an enquirer on this path will become aware of the self which experiences that peace in the deepest piece if you could ask yourself to what is this peace appearing then you will begin to get the inklings of ananda of bliss that's where peace becomes holy peace can be quietness but there's a in ananda there is holiness in bliss there is holiness this is a kind of sacredness about bliss so ananda is should not be confused with pleasure pleasure is far beyond we have left it behind unless you go through peace you can't come to ananda notice the pathway to ananda to bliss lies through withdrawal from the world sitting down in meditation looking inward sukhaduka have stopped shanti reigns and beyond shanti deeper than shanti underlying shanti is ananda bliss and this applies in a path of devotion this applies in this path it applies in the path of meditation also okay yeah okay we have done we are done i think just the next verse is interesting i would like to mention it and go ahead 20. or should we do it next time 22. let's mention it because it's in the same logic swabha so it says suppose we accept the dualist's point of view what does it say those in whose view the immortal can actually become mortal and then again tries to become immortal in the in their view when the immortal becomes mortal when atman or brahman becomes this jiva individual being and then tries to recover that again that is the dualistic approach if the originally immortal could become mortal then the krita ke in amritam they produced immortality how long will it last the artificial immortality krita ke namritas amrita how can that be stable you are originally immortal original pure perfect nature you lost it fell from heaven not paradise now you're going to produce it again with god's help how long will this artificial immortality last so so even if you accept the duelist's point of view it does not make sense it all the dualistic theories make sense if you regard non-dualism as the deeper meaning of the dualisms all the dualistic theories are beautiful you can practice any one of them and they will all lead you to this or they should this is the claim made here otherwise shankaracharya says what is the fault and this in his commentary he says the possibility of moksha liberation nirvana salvation the solution to the problem of death that will not be possible from immortal if you have really become mortal and you're trying to become immortal again you can again becoming more immortal so moksha will not last moksha will be subject date of expiry consume before best before such and such a date today the other moksha also will become rotten afterwards then no in no system notice that any none of the dualistic systems nobody says that salvation um immortality moksha nirvana that is impermanent nobody says everybody everybody says that salvation has to be permanent overcoming of death means permanence immortality if that is so and you put it with the earlier idea intrinsic nature then we must be that in perfect reality right now and the thing to be done is to realize that and all these dualistic systems practices of meditation of service of worship they're all good they prepare us for this realization chanting you know even a buddhist who talks about the non-eternality momentary nature of it everything sarvam shranikam everything is momentary impermanent if you ask so nirvana is that impermanent everything lasts for a moment so you work very hard and follow the eightfold path and get nirvana released so will that last for up for a for a second for a moment no no no not that so there must be something which even there they will say they have to say that they will say that no no that is also momentary but momentary in what sense they'll say it's beyond time okay that's a cop-out you mean that it is immortal beyond time means immortal