Video 141

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna by Swami Atmajnanananda (8/25/2023)

[Music] [Music] you know your words are like nectar bringing life to scored Souls they are praised by Poets and removal sin they are auspicious to hear wonderful and exalted those who spread these words throughout the world are truly giving Souls Welcome to our class on the gospel of srama Krishna we are on the chapter festival at surendra's house it's Friday June 20th 1884 page 457. it was dusk the SRI ramakrishna was sitting in his room absorbed in contemplation of the Divine mother now and then he was chanting her name rakal m and several other devotees were with him after a while the evening worship began in the temples mother left the room to see the worship srama Krishna and M conversed Master tell me does baburam intend to continue his studies I said to him continue your studies to set an example to others baburam of course is the future Swami premananda and srirama Krishna is not very convincing when he tells us that he was trying to get him to continuous studies he and he wasn't very unhappy when he found out that he wasn't going to continuous studies but he didn't want to force him he wanted it to be his decision and he was concerned about the family not so much because they were so much opposed but because they were close family of devotees as his mother especially in some of the other cases he knew that some of the boys who came even would get beatings for coming to him and everything so he's he's telling him continue your studies I said to him continue your studies to set an example to others but he'll be very very happy if and when he comes to stay with him because we know that when drama Krishna went into spiritual moods that night everybody could he couldn't bear the touch of anybody and everybody and he was in such a state during this period that I only this babura was was considered pure enough not that he calculated but he was the one that could always help Sharma Krishna hold him up in samadhi and everything without any chance of any reaction it's remarkable even above Narendra and rakal and the others the top words felt that he was the purest pure purest soul of all of them irremarkable so I I said to him continue your studies to set it an example to others after Sita had been set free vivishana refused to become king of Ceylon Rama said to him you should become king to Open the Eyes of the ignorant otherwise they will ask you what you have gained as a result of serving me they will be pleased to see you acquire the kingdom I noticed the other day that baburam bhavanak and Harish have a feminine nature and the vision I saw baburam as a goddess with a necklace around her neck and with woman companions about her he has received something in a dream his body is pure only a very little effort will awaken his spiritual consciousness now what this exactly means a feminine nature this of course is from a spiritual point of view with regard to their spiritual attitude and Sharma Krishna had this understanding that they belong to a certain he would say Gore a certain room this they came from a certain region spiritual reason and region that we very hard for us to exactly understand but I say those who and to a large extent it had to do with whether they were following the path of devotion or The Path of Knowledge those who follow the path of devotion very often would fall into the camp of this feminine feminine nature swamiji of course would be the masculine type so some of it uh it wasn't a gender type of thing it was a spiritual attitude now it takes ramakrishna what what was his main spiritual attitude child of the Divine mother now where will he Place himself we can't place him anywhere because he he fit into every he practiced every he was comfortable in every possible situation but if we want to follow this type of of thinking then uh most of the time he thought of himself as a child and this this mother worshipers of the Divine mother is generally a mother-son relationship and generally it doesn't have to be of course but ramakrishna practice all different relationships where he thought of himself as as female as male uh and Beyond both so yeah uh he had a very very major uh painting uh yeah chaitanya Deva uh according to their scriptures he practiced all of the Bahamas so that means that he wasn't simply this where one thinks of himself as a female companion is identifies with the gopis or Radha to worship Krishna according to them he practiced all of them but that would be probably the dominant the dominant mood for him almost didn't have a dominant mood he mostly this looking upon God his mother but he was so comfortable with all of the other Traditions that we can't pigeonhole him in in any way really yeah but I think uh because he had a very soft nature and it was very loving but it could be very tough and severe and Stern to the uh especially to the young monks who joined at bellermud he could be a Taskmaster that way so it's a little hard to quite understand exactly uh how astrama Krishna made these different types of of distinctions we can see easily with Narendra even physically the strong is a little bit slight thin and everything and niranjin of course is big and strong and the fiery type and everything so yeah it had to do a little bit with the traits that we tend to identify as female and male some of course are stereotypes that don't work anymore but this seems to be what he meant at this time [Music] irrelevant of example oh that uh for other people other Ordinary People to think that though he was a worshiper of ramen what is he doing now he's just retired the 40s nobody and he's nothing more to attract people who aren't exactly spiritual people yet this was the same technique that we find with uh telling people come you'll you'll get this nice food and embrace of a young woman they come because of that sometimes you're advertising and then they realize that this uh fish those tears that are coming down you'll get the Embrace of a Young Man meets the roll on the ground he uses that that example in ecstasy that way uh so it's a half he's not he's not very serious with all of this uh if he really thought it was important for baburam to set an example to others you can be a a very good disciple and still finish your studies and have a good job and everything he would have encouraged them but he doesn't so that's why I say uh he's he's presenting an argument to him that's a legitimate argument half hoping in in my mind or completely open or maybe knowing that he won't buy it this he's going to say okay let others do that so this is this is actually Jeremy Chris is quoting himself this is what I told him I told him to to continue to studies and everything and then I gave this example Division and everything uh but really he's Overjoyed when Barbara decides to renounce the world not continuous studies not get married and everything yeah so anybody else any other explanation for that okay so about this he has received something in a dream his body is pure only a very little effort will awaken his spiritual consciousness now he'll give this this real reason you see I'm having some difficulty about my physical needs it will be nice if baburam lives with me see how he puts it yeah I I'm not pushing him in that direction I'm giving him all the arguments I'm giving him every chance not to do it to continuous studies and everything but if he decides he wants to stay here it'll be nice that means he'll be very very happy uh of course this is all kind of a game he he knows when these uh direct disciples come especially these few that he called ishwara kotis he knows that they're not cut out for worldly life he knows that this is this is uh he's gonna end up leading a life of a monk and everything so a little bit part of this this Leela we can say the nature of these attendants of mind is undergoing A change latu is always tense with spiritual emotion he is about to merge himself in God Raquel is getting into such a spiritual mood that he can't do anything even for himself I have to get water for him he isn't of much service to me now it may sound a little bit selfish he wants his baburam to come because he he's other two attendants are not doing much for him uh but really he loves this and he knows that he can really have the highest type of realization a very short time by living with him yeah so he knows the such Reliance on a Divine mother he's not going to worry about these things but still it would be nice I like the way he puts it would be nice if he stays Lot 2 of course was the uh the first and uh the Majesty orphan boy who lived with ram Chandra and who ended up staying there and uh rakal uh see ramakrish is complaining about him but every time Raquel went into a spiritual mood suramic Christian was overjoyed in fact he would always point to the spot this is where rakala was sitting when he had his first experience of Bahama so he was overjoyed pretending that uh how annoying it is my attendants can't do anything they're going into the Ecstasy all the time but he's happy of course yeah among the youngsters baburam and niranjan are rather exceptional see these are two of opposite Natures one will be of this feminine type niranjin very masculine type but ramakrishna doesn't uh his his way of making these distinctions isn't based on a different type of understanding what their spiritual attitude is if other boys come in the future they will it seems to me receive instruction and then go away now Purna has already come right at this time he used to say see sarama Krishna he found tremendous meaning in in names and names so he would say this niranjan is perfectly pure and Raquel as a companion of Sri Krishna so when porna came he said this completes the circle yeah so he's saying after babiram in niranjan he could also addition whom he considered to be also in him but I don't want baburam to tear himself away from his family it may make trouble at home smiling when I ask him why don't you come he says why not make me come he looked at rakal and weeps he says rakal is very happy here see they they felt such a tremendous joy in the presence of srama Krishna and such such an attraction that they all wanted to stay there and so many times they would go and it would get dark and they would just spend the night there parents wouldn't know where they were they'd show up the next morning and get a good scolding and everything they were young many of them but they they really M said and also Swami turian on the uh I'm sure they all felt it but this moment that we left sravakrishna the only thought in our minds was when will we go get to go back and see him again so uh there's a babura was so envious of Racquel because he could stay there not any state all of the time sometimes he went back to the family and everything but at that time he was living there rock all now lives here as one of the family I know that he will never again be attached to the world he says that worldly enjoyments have become tasteless to him his wife came here on her way to konagar that was with the family house with she is 14. he too was asked to go to konagar but he didn't go he said I don't like Merriman and gaiety this is all something that should not easy for us to understand how ceramic Christian was not very concerned that he got married he even sent him back to his wife even said I hear that she's expecting a child now didn't seem to concerned him so much and he knew that this rockov you know his future and everything and in those days adjoined families it was a little bit different we think of abandoned a wife with a child and everything but a little bit different and with the direct disciples this is this is one thing that we can notice is that uh it was very much different from the traditional Orthodox wandering sadhu of that time who would leave home and wouldn't see the family for maybe after 12 years they could come back here it's almost as if the wife still felt she was the wife of the husband and we see with uh with the organ from Yogananda how holy mother insisted let the wife come and nurse him at the very end and everything all right so they with a little bit of different types of understanding uh otherwise very traditionally uh the wife is like a widow Elizabeth is dead to her that she doesn't see him and some don't even have to dress like that and everything but it somehow it doesn't seem the case with the direct disciples what do you think of niranjan he's talking to him no um he's very handsome he was big and strong and handsome and yeah a wonderful figure we see even his picture we see a strong good posture and everything he used to go around with the big staff and everything Emmy he's very handsome Master no I'm not asking about his looks he is guileless one can easily realize God if one is free from guile spiritual instruction produces quick results in a guileless heart such a heart is like well cultivated land from which all the stones have been removed no sooner is the seed sown than it germinates the fruit also appears quickly now guyless this is a tough one because uh we we have to just be born that way there's some people who were disguideless they're little simple and trusting and not complicated people they don't over analyze things somebody says something they accepted is for more for Village People I think not for sophisticated people and we can say that yeah it'd be nice if we were Godless Taco says how wonderful it is but I think it's too late for most of us that either you have it and we see some some kids especially are just like very simple and everything I was remembering uh something that I heard from our Swami gautamananda Ji he was talking about the truck he worked with the tribal children at one time about how guys how simple they were and he thought one day let me teach them to never tell a lie so he started telling them and then one of them said what is it what is this telling a lie what does that mean and he said uh if if something happens and you say it didn't happen or you did something you say you didn't do it that is telling a lie you should never do it and the children were confused they they said if it didn't happen why would we say it happened they they couldn't get the concept of telling a lie and now we can't imagine that but that's what it means to be guilas and and talk with or that was so wonderful he himself was a guyless he was so simple that we so many examples he gives that that one nice example when he felt something that uh pinched him I thought it could have been a snake bite and somebody had told him that uh if if you get bitten by the snake uh second time and then it'll remove the Venom that injected the first time so he's lying outside in some areas what are you doing and he said I think I may have been bit by a snake so I'm waiting to see if I invite me again that person it has to be exactly the same place he said oh then forget it but he tells all these these stories he makes fun of himself almost how Godless he was the the one time who was it azra or Rita one of them said oh if you stick your head out the window in the carriage and this this cool night air and everything it'll be very good for you so I did it I caught a cold but very simple whatever the doctor said he would follow he had more faith and then than anybody so this if we have it if regardless the grace of God otherwise I don't know how people become guyless we try to practice truthfulness and sincerity and everything but this real guy list thing even even uh among the direct disciples sharabi Krishna is only pointing out these two they're here at least he's just mentioned especially with these two foreign will not marry he said at a very young age he told his parents I won't get married some of them looked upon that as a high ideal it is lust and gold that causes entanglement isn't that so and how poor him what's him going to say he's married he's and yes sir Master what will one gain by renouncing Beta leaf and tobacco the real renunciation is the renunciation of lust and gold I came to know in an ecstatic mood that though niranjin had accepted a job in an office he would not be stained by it he is earning money for his mother there is no harm in that now these are confusing things for many people why was the attack was so much against people having a job and working and earning money it seems like I mean everybody has to do that it was only these uh who were destined to become the future of the monastic members of the order and uh who lived in a joined family and didn't have to work if they were working invented they had some desire for some money to buy things and everything they were different of course in in the in narendra's case when the family was starving he had to look for a job and now this niranjan because probably his father died also and yeah because it talks about his his widowed mother he did it for her every so then it was okay then we'll hear about doctors and lawyers also so Sharma Christian had his own understanding of things because he had such perfect dependence on the Divine mother that even this idea that no I have to worry about my future I have to have a job we have to save money he said for householders it's okay but for his chosen ones the future monastic members uh he said one time I would have rather heard that Rocco had passed away than that he had taken up a job taken up service that means putting yourself you know under service in those days was some very very bureaucratic type of thing with a boss who orders you around like a servant and everything oh he is earning money niranjan he's earning money for his mother there is no harm in that the work you are doing won't injure you either this is them and he was uh teaching Headmaster in the school what you're doing is good suppose a clerk is sent to jail he is shut up there and Chained and at last he is released does he cut Capers after his release of course not he works again as a clerk it is not your intention to accumulate money you only want to support your family otherwise where will they go so that means that he can he can have this highest type of realization even while he's doing his job and then afterwards uh he can do it or not do it he's not attached anything like that this is a common theme in in the Zen literature yeah we one famous zen master he said before Enlightenment I I carried water in chapter wood after Enlightenment I carry water in chop wood that means it is all in within the mind is all within the heart or the mind that experience what we do externally there will be no possibility of attachment or anything and no reason to change uh to do something radically different uh unless of course circumstances May dictate that but just in general that everything will be internal radical internal type of transformation but externally what we do won't matter even SRI Krishna he says look I'm lord of the three worlds I can do uh no harm if I don't do anything if I continue to work no harm also I'm not attached to anything let's set an example for others M I shall be relieved if someone takes charge of them that means of of his duties now Anne was always conflicted throughout the gospel we find we find two things one this conflict with his family whether to live at home and go back to with his father and everything or or live on his own and there's other tremendous conflict about monastic life or family life social life and uh Krishna uh never encouraged him of course he had it in the family he had his obligations he had his duties but you have a Krishna understood that uh M was to represent a different type of example sometimes we hear this term grihi sannyasi that uh living in the setting of The householder but really with the mindset of a sannyasi so this was this was uh M's fade we can say or is karma that he was never able to really fulfill that desire to renounce everything he would have loved to adjust moved into brahmat with the others and lived like that but maybe he couldn't maybe his karma would have drawn him out maybe Tucker saw something there so am says I shall be relieved if someone takes charge of them master that is true but now do this as well as that so do your worldly duties and at the same time call on God um it is great luck to be able to renounce everything what is it the you have the Bengali there is no real word for luck and it should be like good fortune or something anyhow it is great luck to be able to we we take it as Grace to be able to renounce everything master that is true but people act according to their inherent Tendencies some Scottish and we we may have tremendous desire to renounce everything but there'll be some something holding us back something pulling us some little karma is there some some Scottish you have a few more duties to perform so that means that some Karma still left so it has to be uh this is this Bogan that we've seen this term so many times that it has to be enjoyed it has to be fulfilled after these are over you will have peace then you will be released a man cannot easily get out of the hospital once his name is registered there so once we're born and once we have all these there's a Karma that we have to uh we have to get rid of and these enjoyments that we have to fulfill in everything we we won't get released until we've done all of that he is discharged only when he is completely cured the devotees who come here may be divided into two groups now this will be a different division we had that other purus and prakriti now we'll have a different division one group says and it's and it's not monastic and and non-monastic it's not that distinction one group says oh God give me Liberation another group belonging to the Inner Circle doesn't talk that way so this is the Inner Circle in the Outer Circle and the Inner Circle will be all the monastic devotees and the close householder devotees also through ramakrishna uses this language very often it's a common these are common terms he talks about the elephant he has the tusks outside the put on The Big Show and everything but the inner teeth are the ones that do the actual chewing they're the antarctas or the the pillars in the not to endear some of them are just for show the others are really supporting the whole thing so he makes these types of distinctions foreign so the devotees who come here may be divided into two groups one group says oh God give me Liberation another group belonging to the Inner Circle doesn't talk that way they are satisfied if they can know two things first Who I Am Second who they are and what their relationship to me is you belong to the second group otherwise you have it there yeah so that means that M doesn't want to reveal what Swami Krishna said to him now takura talks this way uh there was another interesting uh conversation when somebody asks will all of your disciples attain liberation now what do what would we expect yes he said no not those who came with me they'll have to come again also and the holy mother also is a beautiful conversation with uh is a beautiful conversation where he says to her mother I I want Liberation I I don't I don't want to come back again she says sorry you have to come back when I come back I don't want to he said you have no choice whenever I come you'll come again so this was the real Inner Circle that means they're part of the companions of his Leela Leela it's a very hard to understand all of these things but uh he wanted them to know that they were part of this play this Divine play and they had the part of this fulfilling a Divine mission in life so swamiji of course understood it very well that was tremendous burden that he had his whole life to carry this this teachings of srama Christian they all had that that understanding and swamiji actually uh wanted his disciples and the future monastics of the order to also not care much for their own liberation to care more about serving others the leading a life of perfect dedication he said then if you run after mukti you'll go to hell if you don't care for mukti mukti will run after you and catch hold of you so there is no question that they they were sacrificing their own spiritual future by serving all this it was actually helping but he didn't like and surely Krishna also didn't like that consult his type of attitude he always talked about the ancient wishes let me attain Liberation and don't let anything come to disturb my mind and distract me or anything they would leave early morning leave the ashram and everything so we talked like that but this is really these are those type of statements that are really mystical statements that they only have to know two things who I am that means Avatar and who they are that means Companions of the Avatar who come along with him and have a role to play in this Lila it all has to go with back to this idea of this Divine Play so he's telling him you belong to the second group otherwise now very often uh takor will say otherwise why did they come so often or otherwise why did they show me such respect or otherwise but we don't know exactly what he's saying here but any other probably be something complementary to him that he's not going to tell us then he'll go back to this earlier theme and a few others have a feminine nature Hari sleeps in a woman's cloth baburam says that he too likes the womanly attitude so I am right bhavanat also is like that but Narendra rakal and niranjin have a masculine nature now what I said before is also not 100 True is because Raquel it's Roman Krishna said that the nature of a bhakta and Narendra begani although he said that it also was was had a devotional side but uh he so he had different distinctions and and they didn't always fall in opposite camps with this purusha and patili they're both in the same camp the bhaktin Ghana in different camps he had his own way of understanding these things please tell me one thing what is the significance of my having hurt my arm once my teeth were broken while I was in a state of ecstasy it is the arm this time now talk where talks about this at least I don't know at least a half a dozen times what's the significance of this breaking his arm but this time he'll give a different answer I don't know why huh it's a curious uh seeing him silent the master himself continued the conversation my arm was broken in order to destroy my ego to its very root now what Eagle did Tucker have but generally we know uh he says mother was trying to tell me that don't see God in this state of ecstasy that's how we fell see God dwelling in all beings another Leela that's the the usual explanation that we get and we get it several different times but here for some reason he gives his other type of explanation what ego did he have again one of these statements is not very easy to understand he said now I cannot find my ego with it within myself anymore so srama Krishna went through these different spiritual changes at different times uh even simple things like being able to touch metal it wasn't like his whole life he couldn't touch it he went through a little phase there he had them by the stone dishes and things like that and so he would go through different phases at different times uh at one time he could take food from anybody and everybody another time it had to be cooked by a Brahman of pure character so he went went to these different stages in different phases towards the end really uh it was seeing God dwelling within all the beings that because this not only it became very prominent and I even uh towards the end everything merging into this formless absolute infinite absolute this happened they say in the life of ram Prasad that at the very end there's there's a Divine mother he was seeing her as this infinite absolute formless reality but so approaching the end of his life also being ready to to merge back into that from where he came this his mood started to change a little bit when I searched for it I when I searched for it I see God Alone now this is something that taco says we can all do if we look for that eye you'll find God in its place if we analyze we peel the onion and everything trying to find the ego inside we won't find it but this was this was the reality that he lived in it wasn't an analysis or anything with him now I cannot find my ego within myself anymore when I search for it I see God Alone one can never attain god without completely getting rid of the ego now talk which says this but he also says that one can never completely get rid of the ego so we have to understand this to be that the unripe ego that ego that's identified with with the body with uh with the personality with all of our superficial things whatever our career is whatever ethnicity is and all of those things we take help of this ripe ego this relationship ego in order to counteract that one and that also has to go so that'll be going Beyond satwa to this pure satwith that will but that's the final stage that will have to go so let me start this over my arm was broken in order to destroy my ego to its very root now I cannot find my ego within myself anymore when I search for it I see God Alone the other times he says even in kashipur sometimes I look I see two are there mother and her child sometimes I say mother alone is there so depending on how high a mood he's in one can never retain god without completely getting rid of the ego you must have noticed that the chartered bird has its nest on the ground but soars up very high Captain says now this Captain this is uh what's his name he he had some high government position in Nepal and with little Orthodox Orthodox kind of Orthodox Hindu you can say in his ways Captain says I haven't acquired any occult Powers because I eat fish I tremble with fear unless I should acquire those Powers if I should have them then this place would be turned into a hospital or a dispensary people would flock here and ask me to cure their illness is it good to have a cold powers this Captain uh was hot highly respectful of ceramic Krishna and appreciative and and I loved him and everything but also tried to uh [Music] correct him and uh sometimes like we didn't like the fact that he went to see Keisha why do you go to see him and everything little things that he thought that he can give some advice to sravakrishna it'll be helpful for him well meaning but didn't quite understand who he was talking to at the time so is it good to have a cult Powers M no sir you have said to us that a man cannot realize God if he possesses even one of the eight occult Powers called Powers it means that we have some identification with his body and then with the ego and then some pride comes and all sorts of things come uh but uh we these these powers belong to the body and the mind and if if I feel that I have them that means that I'm identified with his body and mind that means ignorance and bondage Master right you are only the small-minded seek them if one asks something of a rich man what no longer receives any favor from him his other favorite example of Charlotte Krishna that we pray to God for things we may get them and the next time he means oh this fellow is praying again I just gave him something of course God is not like that but he gives that example that uh if we if the servant goes to the king and doesn't ask for anything King will be very pleased If he if he's always asking for things then the half the time he'll say no I'm busy today come back tomorrow if one has something of a rich man one no longer receives any favor from him the rich man doesn't allow such a person to ride in the same Carriage with him even if he does he doesn't allow the man to sit near him and now this is not a perfect analogy for God of course but he's trying to make this point that we shouldn't be seeking things therefore love without any selfish motive is the best and this so This goes with uh goes for seeking material things and and siddhis he's not specifically he's talking about these occult powers god with form in the form of the god are both equally true now all of a sudden he'll start with some very high philosophical idea what do you say now he's asking him because in the beginning when he asked them you know what do you believe in he said I believe in formless and when he said well what about form he said no you have to tell these people from you you're talking about the image in the temple you have to tell these people that that's not God and they've got a big scolding so we we M's been through all of this with Krishna before now formless God we all we all know what it means without knowing anything about it we know that it simply means that God doesn't have the two eyes and her nose and mouth and or even eight arms or ten arms that this is a conception that we have and and puranas and and other literature and everything but when we think of God as Consciousness Consciousness won't form we're scientific modern people Consciousness it means something that is transcendent and Beyond we we can all talk like that God with form uh is the conception that most people have uh unconsciously unconsciously even as kids well if if we tried to think who is this God that they keep talking about old man with a white beard huh so the vision comes into that some type of eye something like that if we're sitting on the throne if we're asked why doesn't this is it where is it in heaven it's sitting on a cloud is it heavy Throne why doesn't it fall through the cloud and come to the Earth we say I didn't think about that so these are these are not uh rational conceptions that we have SRI ramakrishna he makes everything so rational that this blend of objective and subjective is very interesting and in the vedantic tradition he was thinking about this this afternoon the vedantic tradition with so many different ways of understanding is god with form or personal God that the dwightens will say that this is just some delusion some just for pure uh imaginary type of thing that you want to think of God in a certain way because you like it that's it there's there's no Ultimate Reality to it then we'll get some little in-between thing that uh yes it's some subjectivity is there but it's objectively true so that block of ice yeah it is it is a block of ice and it has a certain form but the form is according to your liking and it can melt back and so we'll have something we can say this is like uh kalpana some type of of superimposing some image some idea that with conception some conceptual idea of God and then we'll have those that will say that I know the form is also real and uh or others let's say real but temporary that uh not absolutely then there'll be the the real doulas so say no this is 100 real and this is the only one that's real and then we get quarrels so you have a big gamut uh and and the hierarchy range of different ways to understand this idea of personal God and God with form for srirama Krishna uh he allows all of these because he doesn't have that conception that we have we want to say well which one is true he doesn't look at it that way he said they're spiritual attitudes for the dualist yes you can believe that it's entirely true but don't think that other people's conception is wrong he'll put that little footnote there but yeah you can think this is perfectly true uh if you're a little bit more uh of the of a deep thinker then try to feel that uh it's it's cooling power of your heart your devotion that gives it that particular form the sun will come and it'll melt back into the ocean but even even then it's nothing but water same thing is is the ocean or it's just a wave on the ocean it has no ultimate even less reality than than the block of ice they're all very good legitimate ways of trying to understand this idea of the personal God uh with this this other understanding that uh this is a spiritual attitude and uh this is I think one of the most important contributions of srama Krishna that none of these things none of these different uh schools of thought represent truth they represent a path they represent an attitude that's right what he says Lord pot yeah these different doctrines they're not the truth they're a path there are ways to help us so they're all different spiritual attitudes that we have so equally true now how can we say God with form a formless God or equally true because even formless God is the conception that we have until we have that realization even that's a conception we say I am that it's also a type of conception we have I have some idea of myself I I have to that's also a relationship a non-relational relationship but still so both equally true but for him the ultimate truth is the experience is the experience yeah and that can't be put into words we we fumble around with trying to explain it and everything it's helpful but the experience of it goes far beyond far beyond anything that we can say about it Taco says that over and over again so God with form in the form of the god are both equally true what do you say again testing it a little bit one cannot keep one's mind on the formless god a long time because the mind needs something tangible formless God half the time we need some symbolic type of thing yeah if we just try to what do we do I try to imagine empty space or something how long can the Mind do that that is why God assumes form for his devotees now the one thing that I failed to mention uh with his personal god with the avatar and now this is different that we know that they actually existed and lived independently of our understanding of them Rama and Krishna legendary we assume that there were figures like that but we don't have exactly what they did and exactly the words the same way but I knew what we consider these avatars they have some real objective existence now we also have our understanding you're so superimposed according to the ability of our mind to understand them we understand them to that extent so now he's saying that even Beyond uh having to come up with some conception of God say what is my conception oh I think God is kind God is is loving uh I think of God as woman does that mean I think who physical features no I'm thinking God has all the qualities of a loving mother something like that the Avatar we don't have to do all of that we see it it's there before us and swamiji is one of my favorite statements it's for me he says you try to imagine the greatest type of qualities that God could possibly have love compassion this and that and then you look at these great souls and then you realize that even your conception your guess of what the highest possible compassion will be isn't as great as what they actually have because it's limited by your own ability to be compassionate and loving and kind and everything so they were so good how they had such insight and beautiful things to say so this is why God assumes for for his devotees Captain makes a nice remark in this connection he says that when a bird gets tired of soaring very high it perches on the tree and rests first is the formless god and then comes god with form no opposite can also be true opposite can be true surrounded Christian says even those who worship god with form Divine mother ones they'll have that highest knowledge of Brahman they don't everything will merge in this absolute the sun will melt the ice and it'll go back into the ocean so that can also be true but if we're talking about this after having that highest realization when the Mind comes back down again then again there can be that relationship if one has that temperament that relationship and that that's how ceramic Krishna Remains the child of the Divine Mother after near otherwise he also could have been I am he but goes back into that relationship I shall have to go to your house once talking to him I saw in a vision that the houses of of the balaram and Surendra were so many places for our four Gathering the little clubhouses and places they can all get together but it makes no difference to me whether they come here or not a funny statement that he makes and that's right why shouldn't it be so one must feel misery if one feels happiness but you are Beyond both so but Taco did feel miserable if uh if Narendra didn't come before and it didn't come but at the same time could just go above and beyond everything anytime Master yes further I think if the magician and his magic the magician alone is real his magic is illusory like a dream I realized this when I heard the chandi recited we're scarcely born when I learned that they both were dead there's a footnote two demons mentioned in the chandi who were killed by the Divine mother M yes sir once I was going to kala with gangadhar and a steamer a country boat struck our ship and sank with 20 or 25 passengers they all disappeared in the water like foam turned up by the steamer yeah can you imagine that right in front of you you're watching 25 people and just disappeared and drowned in the ocean anyhow talking about this uh dispassion and feeling of the transitory nature of the world it comes when we think about death and people passing away how quickly they go and gives it some sense there's nothing to cling to that we'll have to let go of everything sooner or later no Emily asked a very very important question here may I may I ask you one thing does a man watching magic really feel compassion when he sees suffering in their performance does he feel at that time any sense of responsibility what thinks of compassion only when one feels responsibility isn't that so now this becomes a problem a little bit with this uh what swamiji calls undigested way down to this is a very strict advice that will say this world is illusory like a dream now if it's a losery like a dream then do we are removed by the suffering of other people if we if we see it in the theater or in in the movie will feel some compassion and everything but not for the actor yeah we know that the actor is just that acting if we if we really feel that this is just some type of puppet show sometimes and the people who are the the person in the Puppeteer who's making everything happen is not affected At All by anything will we be affected by that where is room for our compassion if we feel that everything is just unreal just a passing show just like a dream something like that that's an interesting question and uh this was always a kind of criticism of vedanta that it led to a feeling of not caring for people so much the monks would just go out on their own and everything all right swamiji of course reversed it completely that uh whatever we say about anything the indweller is is real and experiencing everything and we have to see God and everything but there's a very uh perceptive and interesting and important question for those who take very seriously this idea this world as illusory like a dream Tucker didn't like that attitude specially but all right so this is a very interesting question so a talker says a guyani sees everything at once so what does let me see everything at once see all of the artificial fruit we see apples and oranges in pears but we also we know that we're seeing nothing but wax now this is always a topic of debate among Scholars they talk about mysticism is it possible to see God in the world at the same time the possibility to see the snake in the Rope at the same time now logic will tell us either we see one or the other and shurama Krishna will tell us that one can see the name of the form and also know that it's nothing but gold that was of course how we lived yeah we can if we want to look at it that way or we can just say this name and form uh doesn't take away from the reality of the substance so the the uh unreality of the wave transitory nature of the wave it doesn't have any anything really substantial to it doesn't take away from the fact that we're seeing the ocean when we see that anyhow this is his answer is interesting and Gianni sees everything at once God Maya the universe so both God my the universe and living beings he sees that Vidya Maya and avidya Maya the universe and all living beings exist and at the same time do not exist that means that they don't have the same type of existence as as this Roman of your Consciousness they exist for a time being they said does a wave exist yeah maybe we can we know the difference between uh the ocean when it's calm in the ocean when there are waves but if we try to analyze what is it actually is it a thing is it just a very for a moment not even a moment uh it never Remains the Same for a moment that that particular shape of the wave but it has some type of reality it's observable experienceable we all know what we mean when we talk about the wave all right the example I'd like is the Horizon we all know what it means to see The Horizon is there such a thing as a horizon well we actually be able to find that line that we can't find it yeah it's just it has it it has an apparent reality so then he says as long as he is conscious of I he is conscious of others too nothing whatsoever exists after he cuts through the whole thing with the sword of Ghana then even his eye becomes his unreal as the magic of the magician and was reflecting on these words when the master said do you know what it is like it is as if there were a flower with 25 layers of petals and you cut them all with one stroke there's a another way of saying well most of that we're we're going to peel the the onion we're not going to just even do it layer by layer by layer we'll just Chuck the whole thing and we know that there's nothing inside that that's just that infinite reality does that mean that God with the form it will become if you see God without the form then you don't see them I think he's referring to this thing with the the this visible universe and at the same time uh somehow seeing it as chinmaya how it's done I don't know but I don't think he's talking right now about seeing God as personal and impersonal at the same time with with form or without form and so he's talking about uh when he says God I think we have to take that as is Improvement as consciousness as that Ultimate Reality or ultimate ground that you're conscious of that ocean see sees both the ocean and the waves something like this okay I thought we'd finished the chapter but we'll we'll stop here in the middle of page 460. um [Music] we bow our head to be forced ramakrishna who was stainless of infinite nature whose heart melts in sympathy for his devotees who is an embodiment of the Divine and the Supreme Lord and ever worthy of our worship peace peace peace beautiful