Video 9

9. Bhagavad Gita I Chapter 2 Verses 23-25 I Swami Sarvapriyananda

Oh Vasu Deva Suton deivam come such are no drama Dunham's devaki param anand krishna monday jagadguru so he has started the second chapter of the bhagavad-gita Shri Krishna is teaching at Matata the nature of the self who am i what am I really the spiritual truth about ourselves is I would say the central teaching of the bhagavad-gita there are many wonderful things which shri krishna will talk about in the chapters ahead he will talk about karma yoga he will talk about the nature of the liberated person about bhakti about Ishwara saguna brahman and so on many many things many many things will be discussed but what ties it all together is ultimately self-realization enlightenment about who we are what we are this nature of the self shri krishna gets directly to the point and he has started teaching this and this teaching will go on up to the 25th verse which is we are going to complete today so we there are these are very well known verses especially in India almost everybody has heard them 22nd verse we were on the 22nd verse we were doing it very tired so 22nd I just start with their song see Janani asahi higher Nirvana green heart in a rope irani tatar irani bhai adjourn on a jnana Sonia Tina on IDI he very well-known verse where Shri Krishna says just as a person gives up worn out clothes clothes which are all torn and puts on a new suit of clothes so does the embodied self give up give up these bodies which wear out so an old worn out damaged body is left and then the soul goes on to other lives other bodies this is a general idea and last time I mentioned from the Vedantic perspective what do you mean by body a little in-depth analysis so we speak of three bodies briefly speaking three bodies one is this one the physical body the second one is what is called the subtle body and the third one is what is called the causal body so physical body we are all aware of the one which you see which is sitting right here which everybody else can see so that is called stool as sharira in sanskrit physical body gross body subtle body if you say what do I can't see any subtle body what kind of subtle body oh how do I do I believe in it you know actually the all of us we experience the subtle body all the time we are experiencing it when you look inwards thoughts feelings emotions ideas memories desires so these are all part of the subtle body suksham sharir and last time I mentioned the subtle body in different texts has different classifications 19 parts somewhere it is set somewhere 17 parts whatever so subtle body and the causal body is a more technical matter philosophical matter where it is basically again or ignorance which veils the truth out about ourselves and we really are beyond the three bodies imagine three layers or shells one after the other the causal body the subtle body and the gross body now why am I saying this when Shri Krishna says that at death the body is given up like a worn out suit of clothes which body gross body the physical body stool a shadier this one quite obviously this one dies but not the subtle body more or less all schools of Hinduism they accept that the subtle body continues sukshma sharir continues and the causal body too continues causal body we need not bother about too much here right now the sukshma sharir goes on so it goes from this body to other worlds and then is reborn again in other bodies how why for that you have to go into the law of karma recently we had a discussion in in the Rubin Museum karma and genetics sir karma karma is a very popular word in the United States now invest but the law of karma causality determines what kind of bodies we get where we'll be born and what will happen to us in those lives so new physical bodies we get but the subtle body continues sukshma sharir and the causal body - what about the Atman the self as the real the spiritual self that is always there that is eternal of course but it does not transmigrate when you're talking from the point of view of add weight of a tanta there is only one Atman one pure consciousness so that does not go transmigration means go from body to body it always is in its light all this goes on in it lends existence to all of this but what happens is because of ignorance because of not knowing ourselves to be such we identify ourselves with the subtle body this the Atman identified with the subtle body is called Jeeva Jeeva means the sentient individual sentient be identified means limited by not knowing our true selves number one number two thinking ourselves to be that subtle body so this is this Jeeva is the one which goes from world to world this is the one which is born in various physical bodies this is the one which suffers and enjoy this is the one images which is a believer or a non-believer this is the one which tries to become spiritual so this Jeeva in reality the Atman everfree Atman but under the spell of ignorance this Jeeva so this is the basic conception according to Advaita Vedanta now another point here which we should understand is death is the death of the physical body so that is that is the thing we should keep in mind what is death death is basically destruction of the physical body and the continuance of the subtle body from world to world from from life to life into other other bodies and guided by the law of karma so this is the basic idea about death in Vedanta so very beautiful metaphor of change of clothes as easy as that changing clothes now moving forward 23rd verse come this space here 9m chindan tshis Trani 9m chindan tshis Trani 9m the hottie pavakah 9m the hottie pavakah 'no chinam clay the young couple 'no chinam clida young couple nACCHO sha yata Mata nACCHO shima Ruta weapons do not cut it fire does not burn it water also does not moisten it and the wind does not dry it what is he talking about the body now the hot man the body is affected by all of this the body can be damaged by all of these the body can be cut by weapons it can be burnt by fire it can be dissolved or drowned in water and it can be dehydrated it's so dry it by air you might think what's why is that such a terrible thing it can is one of the quickest ways to kill the body actually to dehydrate it's mostly water this body now the body obviously these are the effects which it can have on the body the five elements not what it the way it has been put weapons do not cut it weapons are made of the earth element weapons are made of the earth element the fire does not the other elements are very clear fire water air to accept space all the other elements have been mentioned here the elements do not affect it the elements do not affect what the Atman the elements do not affect the Atman they cannot destroy it there's a little bit of philosophical you know of a principle involved here how is destruction understood in Vedanta how is creation understood in Vedanta how is destruction understood in Vedanta philosophically speaking creation or Srishti is the movement from cause to effect so from clay if you make a pot you say we have created a pot and destruction is when the effect loses its name and form and goes back to the cause I'll repeat again cause to effect is the fancy philosophical way of saying creation from effect back to caused by cause I mean material costs opala aa karana from effect back to cause is what is called destruction you say in the case of a pot so when your from you fashioned a pot out of clay you have created or Potter has created a pot but basically it's the the material cause clay which now has got a new name and form and you're calling it pot in the name is pot and at a particular form and it has certain new use which you couldn't have done with with clay but would you break it smash it to bits it goes back to pieces of clay so from effect effect is pot back to the cause clay we say part is destroyed now the principle is this the principle is this the effect cannot destroy the cause no matter what the pot cannot destroy the clay because the pots very existence depends on the clay pot cannot effectively but the clay can destroy the pot in what sense click lick and reabsorb the pot into itself but if you think of the waves in the water the waves are appearances in in the ocean of water water alone appears as waves so water is the material cause and ways waves are the effect so when you see waves are created it's nothing other than water because appearing as waves what is creation water appearing as waves are water forming into waves what is the destruction of the wave the wave going back into water from effect to cause now the wave can't do anything to water but the water can reabsorb the wave into itself so here in the Vedanta cosmology from the Earthmen through its power Maya R comes the five elements Akasha y-you Agni ARPA pretty V the space air Fire Water and Earth the five primordial elements in our ancient cosmology tight till you open it it says the smart by eight a smart manner from this very Atman Akasha so muta Akasha was manifested our car shot value Y or Agni Agni rapper advaitha pre TV from y-you comes from Akasha from space comes air from the air comes fire from the fire comes water and the from the water comes earth actually a causal chain now notice the cause can the effect cannot effect the effect cannot do anything to the cause so earth water space earth water fire air none of them can effect space because space is prior to all of them notice it in in now I've noticed when a body is burnt I've seen it in India a dead body is burnt so the fire dissolves it burns up the body into ashes the water content in the body there's a lot of water in the body it vaporizes the fire itself is burnt out when when the fuel is extinguished and the air becomes hot around it you can't come close to it it becomes hot and yet after everything is over space remains exactly the same it's neither burned nor vaporized not extinguished nor not even heated space doesn't get heated it's the air or in the space which get seated so these the point I'm making these elements earth water fire air they can't do anything to space itself what to speak of the Atman which is prior to space in this in this sequence effect cannot harm the cause so these four elements they cannot harm their primordial cause space let alone its antecedent which is the Atman so the Atman cannot be affected by the elements they puts it very because if the context is the Kurukshetra war so uses the language of warfare and says that body can be cut by weapons but the real self the spiritual self is not injured by weapons nor can it be burnt by fire not drowned by water nor indeed dehydrated by air 24 ochite dura mater hume Hachi durham the hume Oakley Jewish Russia but we do a show show what nietzsche saruba got a star new Nietzsche Salva got a star new a cello iam so not an archer liu yung's are not and the first line is a repetition of the 23rd verse so it says this self the Atman cannot be cut a che diem I am Atma a JD I am means i am ahmed itself it cannot be cut or cleaved by weapons other I Here I am this self cannot be burnt by fire I'll clear this self cannot be dissolved by by water associa this self cannot be dehydrated by air just like what can be cut burned drowned or D or dehydrated the body don't seem to be very confident unless you have Superman's body or something like that the body can can be damaged or destroyed by these elements but the self cannot be it's a clear repetition of what was just said in the 23rd verse here is a point repetition in fact in Sanskrit literature Pune octi days it's called a dosha a fault you should not repeat the same thing again and again but in most great spiritual texts teachings you will find plenty of repetition I think it was read I who went to Sri Ramakrishna and said uncle you say the same things people keeper why will people keep coming to you if you keep repeating the same thing you say something new once in a while and Sri Ramakrishna scolds you rascal these are my words I'll tell them a thousand times if I want to watch it to you like a little boy he said these are my words these are my tongue I'll tell a thousand times what's it to you now clearly Krishna's repeated it here but in the commentary by Shankar Acharya he points out this is not a fault why is it repeated it is the the matter is so subtle these at Matata is so subtle and shri krishna has this great eagerness desire that we may all be saved for our welfare shri krishna wants to explain it in many ways so Shankar Acharya says somewhere with different words sometimes using different metaphors Shri Krishna is telling the same thing so that if you can explain the same thing in multiple ways maybe we'll get it some way will work for somebody and some way will work for somebody else once Swami Vivekananda was teaching and somebody said and in the audience it Swamiji I like you I like it very much what you said and Swami said yes so it is for you and somebody said it I didn't really make an impression upon me this particular thing you said then it's not for you so repetition is not a fault in these teachings in the teachings of the great great masters because they're doing it for our benefit that's why different Upanishads the Bhagavad Gita other great texts written by the great spiritual masters not only in Hinduism in all religions you will find more or less a few core teachings but presented in extraordinarily different ways with wonderful examples stories you know and so on so this is that's the first line then the second line is important Nietzsche Sarova gotta star no hollow iam sanatana ha meteo means eternal this self see in the first verses it was a negative a series of negatives this cannot be done to the self what what can what can destroy the body cannot destroy the self hence it is nitya eternal it because it cannot be destroyed it is eternal eternal means not limited by time there was never a time when this the self did not Atman did not exist they will never come a time when this argument will not exist not limited by time also means there was never a time when this Atman was born or created body is born the body is born there is never a time when the Atman is going to die or be destroyed the body will be destroyed why one body many bodies will be destroyed so nithya not limited in time then the second one Sava gotta all pervading all pervading means not limited in space not limited in space at two points I would like to make here when we say not limited in space it sounds very philosophical oh so there is some self which is not limited in space but the way Shri Krishna presents it here sorrow vergata pervading everything servant means everything pervy everything so when we talk about the Atma it sounds very abstract some spiritual self some pure consciousness something so no surrogate aha this Atman is present in everything which everything here right now what you are experiencing as samsara as this world truly speaking the Atman that supreme spiritual reality pervades everything your own real self pervades everything sarva gato means pervading all this and the second thing is that Salva got also means seen normally when we think of ourselves the word is daija gotta we think of ourselves as being in this body as being in this body and serve Agathe means not just in this body but in everything so our typical way of understanding ourselves is they have got this body he is contradicting this by saying server gotta in all bodies in in everything so the Atman is in everything star no star no means you know immovable like a unchanging like a pillar literally stone is actually a pillar so unchanging like a pillar since it is not subject to change over time it is not limited by time it is eternal additionally not a changing eternal a river for example continuously flows but at every moment it's a different water particles which are flowing past it it's not like that samsara continuously flows Atman is not a continuous flow it is an unchanging eternity so star no not limited by time since it's not limited by space it and it's pervades everything that which pervades everything cannot move from one place to another place a chala a cello cello means moving a charla motionless it is that it is the eternal all pervasive unchanged still serene awareness Sanatana ha Sanatana ha literally means eternal also here it literal specific term Sanatana means not produced from an effect some have not produced from a cause something like a seed gives rise to a tree this Atman is not produced by anything else if you ask what is the cause of the Atman no no cause it is the cause of all causes it is the the primordial being it is being itself so sanatana in fact the name for Hinduism is sanatana sanatana dharma eternal religion eternally in the sense not in the sense that it's a religion which is going to last for a very long time internal in the sense that the principles which are contained in the religion they are the very stuff of religion wherever there is religion this must be their basically religion has two components one is who time what I might call the lower religion lower religion in what sense a wise way of living in samsara ethics morals a wise way of living in this world in modern world we might say an eco-friendly sustainable way of living in this world all that comes in that and that's what I call conventional religion and every religion must teach that it's a foundational in fact that's the boon of religion to civilization our civilizations are basically based on ethics and morals drawn from our religious traditions so that's one part of it but that's not really all of it nor is it the most important part the most important part is the higher religion spirituality that which in enables us not only to live wisely in samsara but enables us to transcend some sir a final release from samsara moksha nirvana salvation every every religion has a term for this the final goal of spirituality trying to over suffering dukkha Buddhism starts with that everything is dukkha how to overcome to come so the higher religion which talks about moksha so Dharma is one part and moksha is another part of region these two together are DS arnott and an eternal core of religion that's why it's called sanatana dharma in the way that you find two parts perova the karma kanda karma a new persona and the guy on account of the the knowledge portion the first part the prior part of the Veda which is most of most of it is is concerned with rituals with the fulfillment of desires within the limits of morals and ethics this is a conventional religion part of it it talks about various kinds of Vedic rituals which are hardly which are obsolete today which are hardly performed today but that does not mean that part has become obsolete in fact it is the most common type of religion most people take that to be religion whether it's temples or churches or mosques most people go to these places for having a better life a peaceful life let my family be all right let me get peace of mind let my health be all right let my finances be okay let God bless me and my family and my community and my nation and so on so all these worldly goals for which we depend on God also that is the convention conventional part of religion and most religion is basically that and there's nothing wrong with it nothing wrong with it at all we learn morals ethics from religion nothing wrong with it but there is a higher part of religion God realization Nirvana moksha what is the purpose of life Who am I really is it possible to completely transcend sorrow so that Saints in all religions are concerned with this higher religion spirituality God realization that is the actual purpose of religion so these two parts this the second part is a onaconda in the end opening shots in the Vedas the texts form the basis of the knowledge portion with the higher religion and POG Avadh gita is basically the message of the Upanishads so it's entirely a text of higher religion but today we might call spirituality I don't want to go on little more about this but just one thing I'll quickly mention what is religion good for where did I mention this I was in some some panel somewhere where the discussion was that how do you get young people to become interested in religion in interfaith itself so we talked about that but ultimately you see the religions in the world specially in this country they're trying to make it modern and answer to problems of society many religious leaders seem to think yes that's what we should do religion should solve this problems of society today I don't think so in this country especially we become much too responsive to the latest headlines what is the devil ask specially in California what is your church's view on such and such topic which is breaking news on CNN I said why should we have a view on this our view is on an eternal reality very quickly the eternal reality that forgotten and then religion becomes about a host of very good causes very good causes but those causes keep changing every five years ten years nowadays every five days so ultimately religion should not be should religion should play a positive role in every aspect of life definitely but that's not the prime purpose of religion why I'm saying this is in another conference in LA I I there were some leaders of different churches about social justice I raised a question an objection I said as societies become more prosperous more advanced civil society takes hold law-abiding as we see era in the advanced countries of the West and the other developing countries also slowly it is changing in many places changing for the better you will see society begins to follow all all these norms without the help of religion you no longer need religious leaders to tell you to obey the law to be good to be law-abiding to be honest it becomes part of civic life there are lots of people in this country in Europe for example who are very good very honest very law-abiding blood of integrity and have absolutely no interest in religion and that's a sign of progress when society internalizes ethics in itself I was in Australia a few years ago and they were telling me how it is all in many respects it's virtually crime free in some respects New Zealand is almost virtually crime free corruption free and also in to a great extent religion free somebody told me that 20 30 40 years ago people they're much more religious much more corrupt there were many problems in society now much less attendances fall in in different denominations not just one in different religious organizations but the standard of life and public morality has improved now what do you say to that I read a paper on an anthropological paper published by the Royal Society which says religion basically had a couple of roles to fulfill one is in ancient times in primitive societies it was a barter kind of you have to please God because life is short and uncertain and there is disease wild animals enemies and God has to be pleased because to protect you from enemies to protect your children to protect your crops all of this and it's a dangerous kind of life risky life and you keep on holding on to this unseen power so they're that kind of religion you will see offerings are continuously made to God prayers are made for protection every religion has this at its core as society became more stable and progressed not so much dangerous risky stable society now religion became the witch which guarantees stability in society the ethics of marriage of honesty in business you know integrity which keeps society together I'm quoting from that paper so religion became the source of morals and ethics again very important for society but as we go even further and people are moral and ethical by themselves and without any reference to religion so religion is no longer needed for you know life is pretty safe and guaranteed in law-abiding society pretty good one prosper is safe to medical treatment is good if your plan is good then and and to second morals and ethics a civic society civil society if you people can be very good people without being particularly religious also then what is religion good for if I don't need religion to protect me from diseases and attacks by any means one I don't need religion to teach me how to be good I'm good without religion also then what good is religion it's a huge question unless you address that question this continuous disappearance of people from churches and you know attendance going down I have had so many religious leaders come complaining and worried about it why people are not interested they're not interested because what are you giving them there is something that religion can give the real thing the core of religion spirituality and it is in these advanced societies where you have a good society a stable society now after all of this also one is not satisfied one is not happy show me who's happy but is not happy then only the religions promised that suffering can be overcome you see when I'm leading with this the real purpose of religion is transcendence of samsara not a better samsara Sri Ramakrishna would put it in a simple way to read ayah gate he said you know if this samsara of yours were real I would have paved the roads of Comet occur with gold come Appa the village he was born little village in remote Bengal he says if this is the only reality that exists then I would have worked to improve this one but this is not the ultimate purpose of religion so son art enough the eternal purpose of religion is God realization Swami Vivekananda was absolutely clear each soul is potentially divine and the goal is to manifest this divinity within God realization you should do it by meditation do it by knowledge do it by service do it by love one or more or all of these and be free spiritual freedom he doesn't say be good he doesn't say be stable and happy and prosperous be free of of samsara Rises and that is the whole of religion then he says books temples doctrines and churches are secondary details so neatly AHA eternal servitor taaha all pervading or philosophically not limited by time not limited by space Stano unchanging because it's not limited by time kala motionless because it's not limit it is all pervading and this in eternal impersonal principle sanatana before I go forward let me just mention this how we use it in spiritual life one commentator very beautiful has pointed out these characteristics remember these are your characteristics characteristics of the spiritual self of what we are really mid-tier nithya means eternal now this commentator he says look at the world samsara it is non eternal it is temporary it is transient in the words of Bhagawan Buddha an idiom an idiom server manikyam impermanent impermanent indeed all is impermanent not only impermanent he goes on to say momentary Shani come Shani comes sarvam Shani CIM momentary momentary all is momentary he goes on further to say shenyang zunium sarvam zunium empty empty indeed all is empty and therefore do come do come serve am do come suffering suffering all is suffering if you hold on to this world which is impermanent momentary and void empty emptiness then suffering is is guaranteed so notice the commentator says notice the nature of the world you live in it is impermanent you have to spend some time on it impermanence sounds like a very neutral philosophical world everybody dies that's the big big fact about about our lives that's why vivek under put it in his beautiful rhetorical way he says everybody dies Saints die and sinners die emperors die and poppers die the most learned die and the most ignorant die everybody dies dead that you cannot stop that you cannot top stop the death of the physical body consider our own lives parents and grandparents have gone old age death children grow up and go away neighbors shift and move out we also move across cities and continents change our bodies are continuously changing getting older the winds of change are continuously all the time blowing I was just thinking this particular city we had this grand city we are living in John Lennon called it the Rome verily the Rome of our time New York especially Manhattan three hundred years ago it was a set of scattered settlements around the Hudson River three hundred years before that dense forests cold River few scattered tribes moving on here and there a few thousand years before that not even any probably no human beings either and in the museum I was seeing this very pleased at one time was underwater if you go back millions of years huge prehistoric terrifying underwater monsters floated past here right here all gone the winds of time they are not stopped blowing they're going blowing right now and all that we see this objective reality this samsara which we call our samsara will be gone like a dream but the further goes on to say what is this samsara like he says a bubble in midstream a flash of lightning a phantom in the dark such indeed is your life we it's incredible how deluded we are about our own existence a Kebede song stinking in two days this body will be one with the earth those in macaque melee attack me legged Odin gaje pirate McGrory me why do you go around with the you know it's so much pride and ego when I Drive past there's a big Cemetery on the way out to two queens on that side you see the cemetery is full of indispensable fellows this is how you use the term nitya eternal this samsara we are living in and every bit of it is transient every bit of it every moment it is it's disappearing in our hands but don't be afraid if you just look at that what what happens is terror seizes you terror ceases but this is what secretion is saying there is an eternal reality which will not perish which will not die which will not go away but it's not here in samsara it's you that's nityam this is how you use the term lithium consider in contrast samsara use the term Lithia considered in contrast samsara which is Anita then use the term server gotta consider the fact that week our the first thing we think about ourselves is here I am in this body and Krishna says no you are in everything Swami Veera John and the ji was a president of our order very interesting I never seen him of course a long time ago the great Swami he says in one place he has a book towards the goal supreme extraordinary book he was a great South ACCA's we poured his entire life's spiritual realizations into that little book towards the goal supreme and all that is just full of single sentences one two three four numbered one two three four so one of them in one place he says I don't need netbook or somewhere else I think that book this entire universe including this body is presented to you at once so either I am all of it or none of it what we do is when I experience this samsara I say I am this one this is called in Sanskrit or Hindi they have gotta this one and all of this is not me this is subject that is object and samsara starts for me what village ng says that Krishna is saying here either say I am all of this if I am all of this then all of this is presented to me the witness consciousness or I am none of this it's like a movie appearing in me I watch enjoy it comes and disappears impermanent transient like a movie this is how you use the term servo gotta see it's one thing to learn the philosophy behind it another thing to apply it immediately in your life so what he says here is use the contrasts Krishna says you are servo kata and how do we now normally look at ourselves they have got the one body star new everything changes in this world people change bodies change Pitkin continuously changing and Krishna says the Atman and unchanging not subject to change a chala in contrast you see this word actually means immovable everything in this world is moving people are moving objects are moving states in our waking dreaming deep sleep continuously revolving the earth is moving the planets are moving everything is in motion krishna says you are not in motion use this contrast to extra create you extricate yourself from the mess you have landed in so this is the meaning of the 24th verse 25th verse Krishna sums it all up some SWAT up this teaching about the Atman what he has been doing all along a Victorian much into YUM byakuya much into YUM avocado Yama tuti avocado Yama tuti the smart even between the smart even did it Traynham no no show cheetah mercy no new show cheetah Maha see this self is said to be unmanifest unthinkable unchangeable therefore knowing it to be such you ought not to grieve take up the terms objector unmanifest what does it mean you the real you you are not an object of the senses this Atman we are talking about oh yeah I know that but no drive it deep into your mind because we keep once in a while asking if it's there why can't I see it we can't see it because it cannot be seen you never ask why can't I see atoms and you don't doubt the existence of atoms why don't you see atoms what is the ker answer why don't you see atoms right now this is too small to see they're too small to see so that's why I don't see it I don't see it did I can't see it so it doesn't exist no the Atman is not an object of the senses so it cannot be seen just because it because I can't see it account I don't say it doesn't exist it's not an object of the senses so it cannot be seen it cannot be seen it cannot be heard it cannot be smelt tasted or touched the body can be seen heard smelled tasted touched but not the Atman this subtle body is an object it cannot be seen smell tasted touched but it's an object to the mind in the mind you you notice your thoughts we notice our feelings desires emotions very clear to us so these things the subtle body is clearly an object to the mind right but the admin is not an object to the mind leader material if you take a vector that means unmanifest not an object to the senses can't be seen smelt hear heard tasted or touched one and a cinta it's not something that can be imagined conceived or inferred he put them together it means Atman is not an object not an object of language not an object of thought not an object of senses but not being an object does not mean it is not does not exist it exists it is you you are not an object how do I know then I exist if if I see how do we know things exist only by making them objects of senses or the mind I know you are here because I see you you know I am speaking because you hear me I know two plus two is four not because I see it or hear it because I understand it I know my name is self serve up Rhiannon that not because I see it or hear it but because I remember it notice this understanding remembering imagining these are all objects of subtle body and there are physical objects or objects of the senses now therefore I know these things but Atman is none of them is not not an object of the sense is not an object of the mind then how do I know this Atman exists you're great Atman taught by Krishna you're saying I am NOT the body at least I know the body exists I can see it you're wonderful Atman I can't even see it and I'm supposed to believe it and I'm supposed to believe I am that you want me to let go of identification with the body but then what do I hold on to they say their beautiful analogy in the Upanishads a caterpillar it goes you know it like this on the leaves it goes from one leaf it extends itself catches hold of another leaf then let's go up the other leaf you want me to let go of this leaf let go means at least metaphorically then show me the other leaf to catch hold of where is this Atman you're like you you tell us this Atman is not the object of pramanas it is not proved by the sources of knowledge pramana means source of knowledge what are the sources of knowledge protection sense perception eyes ears tongue skin nose none of them can reveal the Atman these are protection Ramana sense perception what are what else are sources of knowledge there are many things which we know which are not got from the from the senses anumana inference inference we get data and from that we make inference entire science is inference you have a hypotheses collect data data is collected by the senses or instruments which augment the senses and based on that you make inferences and we know that we have enormous scientific knowledge but it's the Atman is not an object of inference why we just read achene in theory it's not an object of the mind then how do we know that this Atman exists we know this because Bertrand Russel says that if you want it's just have to believe you know book says it the Good Book says that it exists yeah it's just belief he gives in his humorous way sarcastic way he says then I might as well believe in a flying tea cup there's a tea cup in orbit around there God is in heaven the tea cup is in heaven also right when I choose to believe you choose to believe on flimsy grounds I also choose to believe in flimsy grounds Hume David Hume the great philosopher he said you have to have evidence when you make claims and he says extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence not just ordinary evidence you must prove it it may give extraordinary evidence sufficient evidence to prove it there's necessary grounds and sufficient this is reason and sufficient reason what is that like like the experience somebody said light go who said light our lives of saints yes but that's testimony yes that's a pretty good experience because one source of knowledge for all of us whether we like it or not is authority the lot of things we know today we claim we know it lot of the science we know we did not make the experiments data is published and given to us we take it that he has a body of scientists have discovered it so it must peer-reviewed journal so so it must be it's tested sometimes it turns out to be false we test it so we accept it so it lives of saints yes the testimony of saints across the world they have said it but somebody like but a real skeptic like Bertrand Russell might say that I am a saint also and I say it doesn't exist then our yes but nationally then you'll end up with what we do neti neti not this not this and then you'll end up with that's the process yes the very fact that we are experiencing let me ask you I've given always given you the example of the eyes you know about it by now the very fact that you are I can see you all is a proof that you exist so the proof for your existence what is the source of my knowledge now how do I know the eyes exist because I cannot see the eyes put these together if you see something I see that you are seated there I know you exist here I cannot see an elephant if they have an elephant in the room I would be able to see it I cannot see an elephant therefore I know I know I can confidently claim there is no elephant in the room now eyes themselves I can't see them I can't see the eyes then how can you claim that there are eyes because because you see see what you exist because I see you eyes exist because I see what anything now I've given that example so many times people so it gets cliched after some time another nice example I came across was it's an or of an earlier era of course it says that so you see a photograph a beautiful portrait a photograph how do you know that the photograph it exists because photograph is not in the photograph unless it's a selfie that's why I said it's an old example before the selfies were invented but unless it's a selfie rather than that in any photograph how do you know that there is a photographer it's not there in the photograph because the photograph was taken nowadays of course many things are there selfie timer is there and so many things are there exactly in the same way that you are consciousness that you exist even to raise this question you must exist more precisely in Vedanta this is a follow this carefully it says it is not revealed by the pramanas by the sources of knowledge but all pramanas function in its light because you are that consciousness therefore that consciousness plus mind you have experience of thinking desiring loving hating remembering forgetting not mind by its self consciousness plus mind because of that consciousness because of you the consciousness and the eyes you have the conscious experience of seeing you have the conscious experience of hearing smelling tasting touching so all these senses operate the mind operates by its light by your light that is the proof that you exist that you are having this series of conscious experiences what kind of experience is seeing is an experience hearing is an experience activities talking thinking these are experiences because you are that because of that consciousness yes all right that's a very good question she's asking can we call it pure experience what do you mean by pure experience how would you distinguish it from impure experience what does pure and impure pure and impure in this case does not mean good or bad it means what what okay let let's go this way this is a good entry point what is experience what's the structure of experience any experience what's there when you're experiencing a book we're seeing a book subject an object you are there the experiencer and the object is there in your experience subject an object to reduce it to our terms consciousness and it's object consciousness and its object now these objects of experience keep changing you can see a book you can see my hand you can see the clock book hand clock they changed but the consciousness which is saw each of them is the same of course using the same instruments eyes but now when you use the instrument called ear you're the object of your experience is sound speech music noise different objects but now you are using a different instrument I is one instrument here is another instrument but what's common to both of them you the conscious subject similarly with nose or tongue or touch similarly with mind internally when you're not using external instruments internally when you use the mind to remember something to understand a mathematics problem the object of your remembrance or forgot are or forgetting the OP the mathematical problem itself those are objects of the mind but the consciousness is the same the mind is now the instrument so the instruments and their objects keep changing you the conscious subject are common to all of them now every experience is consciousness plus object I mean including instrument also in it consciousness on one side and in meant an object on the other side this is called experience if you neglect if you do not concentrate on the object just take the consciousness aspect of every experience consciousness consciousness consciousness that is pure experience that pure experience is Atman in fact one of the beautiful definitions of the ultimate reality of the Atman of Brahman Anubhava Mottram param brahma consciousness in itself Anu Baba Mottram mattre means in itself means - its object if you bring in the object there it is simply consciousness seeing a book hearing some words feeling happy feeling miserable awake dreaming sleeping but in all of them the consciousness itself is the Atman Anubhava Mottram param brahma that's why if you ask then practically what is the upshot that's why the yogi is what they do is potentially Yogi's they try to actually do away with the objects of experience that is called Samadhi can you remain absolutely aware and conscious not fall asleep and yet drop all objects so imagine you are there right now suppose you look at this you're looking at the book you are there you're looking at the book now close your eyes if you like you can close your eyes you are not looking at anything maybe just a blankness right right are you still there that means without the functioning of the eyes you still exist right hmm if without the function is the functioning of the eyes I still exist then I the same thing holds if I do not hear smell taste touch none of the senses function will this consciousness still be there yeah now suppose I do not think I do not remember I do not desire I do not hate I do not do with anti which are I know compatible antic thinking will the consciousness still be there now imagine the blankness of deep sleep just imagine don't go into deep sleep imagine the blankness of deep sleep right now absolutely blank you are not even aware that you're sleeping in that kind of blankness what it is like to be in deep sleep imagine that and now drop that blankness just just let it go don't do anything else alright don't go into Samadhi I'm just giving a taste of what somebody could be like this is not Samadhi don't delude yourself not so fast imagine extraordinary calmness nobody else around you sitting in a mountain fastness like a Himalayan cave then imagine the world outside the cave is gone and these all of dissent and telling from personal experience imagine the world outside has gone nothing outside now you close your eyes you can't even see the cave nothing comes from the world outside the world has disappeared you have forgotten the world the world has forgotten you now you lose awareness of your body now the thoughts memories desires shut down a serene blankness reigns even this is not it when you are ready drop that blankness I can't say anymore drop that blankness let it go what remains not even blankness not even deep sleep one of our Swami's he's passed away long ago he was in Kerala each foreign energy he wrote a poem called Midnight Sun sun is shining yet it's absolutely the dark of midnight somebody saw that and said that it only an only an enlightened person only an enlightened person can write such a play only a Brahma Ghani just midnight no Sun no moon that's deep sleep but the sun's shining fully yet it's midnight the world drowned in darkness that Sun is your real nature it's always shining the Gani realizes it even with eyes open in the waking also yes somebody had a question come back happens in extreme alertness have you seen I've seen in National Geographic this cheetah hunting just before it bursts out into Endor and catches an antelope or something you seen how still it becomes I am sure it stops breathing for a few of few seconds that kind of alertness but that's an alertness of hyperactivity of extremely physical but that kind of alertness with absolute calmness that is called satu in that state enlightenment is possible not as a cheetah not seeing the head all right let me conclude with one note I wanted to give is this I mentioned it earlier that a few weeks ago I attended a discussion it's called the philosophy cafe where the subject was the five great unsolved problems of philosophy so this is something that Oxford University Press oh you peep it out as a I guess they want to encourage it's like a gimmick I mean the five great unsolved all problems are solved in philosophy anyway so anyhow but it's interesting what are the five great questions they wanted to discuss it what are the five great questions one the first one was is their free will second one was what can we know at all of epistemology skepticism third one was Who am I sounds familiar the fourth one was what is death death means death of the sort of conscious person for the person not the physical aspect of death which is of interest to doctors but for you as a living being what happens to me and that's the question question and then the last one was what is justice now you will see first four of them are concerned with consciousness free will knowledge Who am I of course death they're all concerned with consciousness and I was just thinking in these verses from eleven to twenty five Krishna has given us free Krishna has given us the answers the Vedantic answers to these five questions you may agree with it or may not but listen to these answers what are the answers given by we're on to do these five questions let's take it one by one the third one first Who am I that is the question actually Krishna's trying to answer he's saying that you are not the changing body you are the unchanging consciousness itself you are not the body subject to death birth and death but you are the unborn undying consciousness all-pervading consciousness Atman you are Atman that's the answer to the question who are you what you think of yourself what most of human knowledge thinks of you as is not the real truth it's not the reality about you this is the answer given by Vedanta by Krishna here one most important this is the first maybe it's enough if you take this of everything else follows from this second do we have free will Krishna has not talked about free will here but you have to derive the answer from this what is the vedantic idea of free will first if you ask would you have free will the first preliminary answer is yes this Atman not knowing itself under ignorance identifies itself with a mind and body and says I am the doer or as Krishna says here I slay or I am slain in the war we read Emerson's poem so first answer is yes I am the doer and the door means I have free will I can do this way I can do that way and then I set karma into motion and because of karma I do this and I get the result of karma it's only by doing it out of free will that I deserve these good and bad results that's the first answer preliminary deeper answer no you don't have free will whether it's the Vedantic way of putting it that it is God's will alone which acts you only think that you do but it's actually issue as well or whether it's modern neuroscience Liberty experiments and all they're saying that it is the brain which is doing it and you have an illusion of free will the body is doing it the brain and nervous system are acting and you think I have decided no the brain has just out of courtesy given your memo we are going to do this and it goes out and does it deliberate Benjamin Libet experiment is actually neuroscience they prove it of course there are lot of discussion the scientists I debated with in Rubin recently said it he's saying in fact his latest article is about free will is it's more complex than that but anyway so deeper examination shows that we do not have free will in the gita itself krishna will say one verse is there which he has repeated three times in gita and the verse says in the 13 chapter he says mercredi Avik armani kriyamanani serve Russia yah pashyati tataat mana MacArthur ohms opacity prakruti alone does everything nature does every action in the world is done by nature once you realize this which means in neuroscience terms brain and nervous system are doing everything the body is doing everything once you realize this then what happens Krishna's point is then you realize that you are the non doing self the non agent self occured teram suppose Shetty he realizes and the consciousness which is not a doer okay and he Krishna has mentioned this verse three times in the bhagavad-gita and actually if we look at it practically in our body mind how much of it are we in charge of do you produce the multiple if you're given charge of a factory producing all the bio chemicals that your liver is producing what a terrible job it would be and that's just one liver one doctor told me it will take a 50-acre factory to produce the various kinds of bio chemicals enzymes and all which have been produced by just your liver suppose you were in charge CEO of the body and all its activities we would be dead in within 30 minutes within 15 minutes or 1 minute itself we'll be dead we'll be overwhelmed by it what enormous amount of activities are going on without any involvement any consultation also no cutscene vote here in the body the liver the lungs the circulatory systems the the the endocrine system then then even the nervous system they're not asking us they know no good this fellow is useless don't involve him it's like you're flying in a plane if the pilot suddenly says ok take over what will you feel like that actually happened to me but anyway they understand that story I'm forbidden to tell so what will you feel like you can't do it it's too difficult and we don't do it so many things are happening how little of it we are actually in charge of Akata you are not the doer there's a second answer second answer to what question of free will the first answer yes we have free will second level deeper answer no we don't have free will third level answer final answer again yes but not that we have free will we have freedom as othman as pure consciousness so I mean I reckon this is the word term freewill is a contradiction in terms free will is a contradiction in terms will is part of causation it's not free so the Atman you can be free but you don't have free will so that's the last answer and so and there is a whole theory about it then what do you do now you have the appearance of freewill in reality you don't have free will and ultimate goal is spiritual freedom then what do you do and the answer is to if you are interested in knowing is that you use the illusion of free will the appearance of free will to acknowledge that only God has free will not us that means continuously use this so-called free will to surrender unto God keep on giving giving back unto God what belongs to God okay so this is the question of free will and it's answer given by Krishna third can we know anything at all the question of knowledge and the answer given by Krishna Krishna can have to derive it Vedanta says what we know is samsara through our senses and our mind it's a kind of knowledge a wave AHA Rika transactional knowledge which helps us to live in this world but it's not knowledge of reality this is not knowledge of reality Sri Ramakrishna put him put it in his very pithy way he says I care Gangan on a clear gain again the knowledge of the one is real knowledge the knowledge of the many is ignorance somebody I think I earn much he was quoting can't learn it ignorant is the end of counters Hamilton that is in in the gospel itself knowledge learning ignorance is the end of philosophy and the beginning of religion so the Mundaka Upanishad says that Pura Vida in Opera Vidya opera Vijay's relative knowledge and pura vida is knowledge of the transcendent reality to this at one so this is vedantic perspective or knowledge what can we know then what was the fourth question death we just discussed it death is death of the physical body it's like changing clothes the subtle body goes on Atman does not go or come or go anywhere it is one consciousness unsteady and unchanging you are that unchanging Atman steady Atman not coming and going in you this game goes on and ultimately does not go on also it's an appearance of Maya and the last one is if you take up the question of justice it's the whole question of Karma what in this world what determines what's going on is there ultimately justice or not we will say yes in one sense there is karma is the long run long term justice in ultimately we all get what we deserve so I Vivek and I said good good bad bad none escape the law you can escape the law only by enlightenment by realizing that you are the Atman so this is what Sri Krishna would say to the five great unsolved problems of philosophy now you don't have to accept it but let us at least consider these as pretty profound deep answers to these five questions very good Oh Shanti Shanti Shanti hurry he owned that such Shri Krishna