Video 13

Ask Swami with Swami Sarvapriyananda | January 3rd, 2021

[Music] lead us from the unreal to the real lead us from darkness unto light lead us from death to immortality om peace peace peace and good morning and a happy new year to everybody so the morning here it seems rather snowy and and dark and dismal i wish all our viewers across the world a happy and much better new year in 2021 so we are gathered here for a session the first session of ask swami in this new year where questions from all over the world are collated and sifted through and organized by our team and then we discussed them these questions are of various kinds but many of these questions are questions of not just one person but many people so when we are taking up a question asked by a certain person we should all listen carefully because it could be it could be your question and you could be the one to benefit more from it than anybody else from the discussion of the question and the answer so i'll ask diane to read out the questions swamiji thank you yes we start off with two questions of a similar nature the first is vikram who asks i think i conceptually understand brahman is our real nature but i find it extremely difficult to experience it because i feel it contradicts the workings of the mind therefore gaining knowledge of the true self through the mind seems to be a futile process should the mind be even used as an instrument for self-realization and then ravishankar from chennai india asks a similar question i understand that my true self is the eternal sat jatananda and that our objective in our lifetime is to realize this truth my question is that since consciousness by itself cannot reveal anything without the support of maya isn't our mind necessary for self-realization through the reflection of consciousness then is realization achieved through our mind is realization also a form of video maya very important questions and these these two questions are actually two sides of the same coin um the role of the mind on the one hand we are told about brahman which is not an object which cannot be seen heard smelled tasted touched it cannot be thought of it cannot be spoken of by language it's futile to philosophize about it speculate about it so it does not seem to be an object anything that the mind can think of anything that the mind can grasp or comprehend so it seems that the mind is it's not necessary for enlightenment or mind cannot be used for realization that's one side of it the other side of it what ravi shankar ravi shankar from chennai is asking is everything that we know is through mind consciousness by itself it really needs the world of names and forms including the mind to know anything at all so uh realization doesn't it have to be in and through the mind doesn't it depend on the mind and if it comes through the mind it's still part of maya it then realization becomes a part of what what he says vidyamaya and the answers to those questions of course is yes but we must understand this to put all this in a short form concisely is the mind necessary for enlightenment or is the mind not necessary for enlightenment to put it even more succinctly what is the role of the mind in enlightenment if you want to put it in one question you want to understand this big question why i said big question this is an irrelevant story but i can't help telling you this wonderful tibetan master i met many many years ago the tibetans have different schools of tibetan buddhism so one of the schools is called the sakyapa and their head the head of one of the schools is gallup whose head is the dalai lama and who is the head of all the schools together but of the four major schools one of them is the sakya school and uh in the sakya school the head is called the sakya thisin not the present one i met the earlier one the one who was before that was a wonderful master i didn't know much about him at that time but anyway i had gone to him with a question about have this b in my bonnet about tibetan buddhism and advaita vedanta so there's a long queue of people and it was foolish of me to ask that question in that setting but anyway when my turn came i bowed down to him introduced myself and i said what is the relationship i want to ask you what is the relationship between advaita vedanta and tibetan buddhism tibetan madhyamaka philosophy and he was a huge man and with powerful glowing eyes he looked down at me and as a newly minted monk and he smiled a little smile knowing smile and he said big question no time um yes big question but we will make time now for this one about the role of the mind in enlightenment so i'll try to answer this question in two parts one is i will take up the subtle philosophical aspect of it first discuss the philosophy of it first and give an answer to that but also the second part of the of the answer will be a practical part uh related to our sadhana our spiritual practice so these two parts question what is the role of the mind in enlightenment is the mind necessary for enlightenment is the mind not necessary for enlightenment and the answer is in two parts first part the direct philosophical issue here in this question is actually raised in a text called the vedanta sara which we are studying now towards the end of that text about writing about 700 years ago sadananda yogindra asks this question you know wait a minute what is the role of the mind in enlightenment the bread are near upanishad says by the mind alone this can be grasped or realized this means the ultimate reality brahman i am brahman by the mind alone it can be grasped or realized and then the ken openishad says what cannot be realized by the mind by which the mind itself is realized or illumined but which which the mind cannot realize and we hear again and again avong venus ago which is beyond speech and beyond mind now you see directly from the upanishads to apparently absolutely contradictory statements one says by the mind alone it has to be realized it is realized by the mind alone mana eva by mind alone and the other one says what cannot be realized by the mind now how do you reconcile these two so let me um let us investigate this matter the question is what is the role of the mind in enlightenment the broader question is what is the role of the mind in knowledge after all we're looking for knowledge yes definitely spiritual knowledge realization but let's first start with general uh this the knowledge that the mind what does the mind do then we will realize what can the mind do in for a for enlightenment and what it cannot do for enlightenment so what does the mind do here is the model of knowledge what knowledge just knowledge in general all the knowledge that we have all the time you know when we what happens when do you see you hear smell taste touch when you think when you remember when you desire love hate understand remember forget all of these these are all related to the mind so what happens what does the mind do in all of these things what is common the common role of the mind this this is a branch of um philosophy called epistemology study of knowledge how do we get knowledge specifically in our case we are interested in the role of the mind in getting knowledge so this is how it works briefly i will i will state as briefly as possible the vedantic model the vedantic epistemology so when you see a rose a flower what's happening let's remember the vedantic model of the human personality what we are so we are actually brahman that's what vedanta wants to tell us pure awareness limitless awareness but in this limitless awareness through the agency of maya appears not produced appears body mind world all of this appears and in the mind this limitless consciousness is reflected you can use the word reflected you can use the word limited the different models here in in vedanta the different schools of thought our chair about the limitation theory pratya bimbaba the reflection theory but whatever it is pure consciousness somehow appears in this mind and not difficult to understand because the mind itself is within pure consciousness so it will it will it's like if you hold a mirror and the mirror will reflect space the mirror will reflect the sky it's the nature of the mirror to reflect the sky but notice the mirror is itself within space so everything is all physical things are within space so if you hold up a mirror here it will be within space but it will reflect space itself it will reflect the sky in the same way the mind which appears in pure consciousness in limitless consciousness reflects that limitless consciousness and that reflected consciousness in sanskrit is there in the mind which illumines the mind which reveals everything in the mind and then there is the sensory system the body and the world now what happens when you know a flower when north flower means see a flower light is falling on the flower and the light from the flower is reflected back to the eyes the lenses catch the image then somehow but remember by the time it comes to the eyes the physical eyes the lenses there's no flower anymore it's just light light being reflected back and the by the time it goes into the eyes there's no it's not light also anymore it becomes an image in in the lens and instantly in a tiny fraction of a second it's no longer an image in the lens also what it becomes is a tiny tiny bursts of electricity racing along your optic nerves to the brain center by how far we have come from the flower so and then somehow in modern science we have no idea how these elect little bursts of electricity are presented to the mind in the form of a flower the form of flower there's not no real flower inside the brain you would require immediate emergency operation if a flower got into your brain but it's it's a in the vedanta it is called a vritti literally means a movement or a modification imagine the mind to be a lake and everything is like a little ripple or a little wave in that lake why is it caused it's caused by the sensory input from the world outside world outside to the senses senses to the mind all this is standard not i mean we don't need vedanta for you don't even need sankhya for it it's nyaya philosophy vishaya indriya sang yoga indriya manasang yoga so object is connected to the senses senses are connected to the mind in the mind there is a ripple like a wave and this wave has a content it is about something what is this the wave what is the wave its mind its chitta but what is it about it's about the flower so there's like a little image of the flower in that wave and that wave that vritti is lit up by the reflected consciousness in the mind so you have a virty about the flower and that is lit up by the ever present reflected consciousness in the mind not the pure consciousness directly but the reflected consciousness in the mind and at that moment we have the knowledge i see a flower there's a flash all it could simply be a very very atomic kind of knowledge flower or even more basic red yeah something like that so it will be a flash of knowledge this is basically the whole the vedantic epistemology of of sense perception in brief notice the stages by the way here i'll go go to what you might call a sidebar a little footnote why those who have studied vedanta especially vedanta parivarsha those who have studied vedante epistemology in detail there is a text called vedanta paribasha which goes in some detail into it they will have an objection here they will say they'll say swami you're leaving out the most uh unique part of this and there's this part where the current the inner sense the mind it flows out through the sense organs and it envelops the object and it destroys the or it removes the veil of of obscuration the avarana and the underlying consciousness reflected consciousness manifests that name and form then only we get the knowledge uh that it is a flower that part i'm true i'm leaving it out i just mentioned it to say that i'm leaving that part out consciously we today for whatever reason we modern people we don't think in that way of the mind flowing out through the senses you know it's an added complication enough to make your head spin so i'm just leaving that out i am using our the usual physiology and the psychology of perception which we all study in school so we have so here are the parts um there is the virti in the mind due to the sensory activity from the world it's in the mind is created a modification of the mind and what is that written a momentary wave in the lake of the mind about the object where did object come from it could be presented by the senses something you see here smell taste touch or it could come from within from your own memory the mind itself generates so many thoughts feelings ideas so that causes a virty in the mind no matter where the virti where the content of the vritti comes from once there is a virti in the mind this stage is called i have to introduce the technical terms pervasion by the mind or pervasion by vritti but pervasion by vritti means the mind has a thought about it that's the simplest way of putting it as a sense so why vivekananda puts it very beautifully he says in a lake calm lake if you throw a pebble into it there will be widening ripples similarly what is the pebble sense input from outside into the lake of the mind so there is this ripple called a virti this thing is called this whole process in an instant fraction of a second much less time than it takes for me to talk about it it happens and it's continuously happening to us we are seeing things one thing two things three things we're seeing one thing after another we're hearing things we are thinking about it all of it comes in rapid succession not simultaneously in rapid succession and it seems to be a simultaneous cell it's like a the mind itself puts all these pieces together and creates a virtual environment in the mind so this is vritti uh this process is called vritti dyapti with the this term it's important to learn this term because all of which i talked about just now it is nicely encapsulated by one term with this is what the mind does and then what happens the reflected consciousness in the mind it illuminates the virty in a flash because the light is there whatever is presented to the light is illumined so light is there consciousness is there in the mind the reflected consciousness so the reflected consciousness illumining that vritti all of this happening in a fraction of a second illumining this vritti is called phalab the resultant cognition by pervasion of reflected consciousness all of it is nicely summarized as palab so knowledge and that follow-up results in the knowledge i see a rose you might see a lot of complications just to see a rose but this is actually not complicated it's a less than one second kind of flash which happens together notice in all of this knowledge in vedanta any kind of knowledge sense knowledge interior whatever knowledge is coming um in your mind also all of this knowledge finally it is all in the mind and the mind is illumined by reflected consciousness two things are necessary for knowledge two things are necessary for knowledge one is the activity of the mind virti what does it do it focuses the mind on a particular thing we have any number of things we need attention to be focused on something for knowledge to come right now when i look at this i'm not looking at what is behind me if i look at what is behind me i'm not looking at what is here so i am focusing the mind through the senses eyes and ears and so and so forth this direction of attention this results in a particular vritti so that's stage one britti bapti and stage two is the ever present consciousness which consciousness original pure consciousness the witness consciousness the atman reflected in channeled through limited by the mind that reflected consciousness illumines the activity of the mind liberty so it is called falafti update knowledge which knowledge all knowledge all knowledge followed by update plus with tv i i if you are listening carefully you will see where this is leading notice that the activity of the mind is absolutely necessary for any kind of knowledge activity of the mind is absolutely necessary for any kind of knowledge senses are necessary but ultimately it has to come to the mind if there is no vitti biapti then the object will remain hidden in ignorance for us i'm using vedantic language to break the veil of ignorance what do you need but to generate the knowledge itself what do you need consciousness what kind of consciousness there's a little wrinkle here reflected consciousness reflected consciousness shining on the briti gives you knowledge fine so this is the model now this works for seeing a flower for eating a piece of chapati or bread for reading a book for listening to a vedanta talk always it is the same thing is going on my words are creating writtens in your mind and the reflected consciousness in your mind is illuminating those virtues and you are listening i hear i then i understand you then you start processing it multiple with these come so all kinds of knowledge are revealed by in this process happening almost simultaneously but now the fun starts when you say i want to realize brahman what is brahman brahman is the um the witness consciousness the unlimited consciousness whose reflection is in the mind i want to realize brahman then what happens you say go through the process of sravana mananananandhyasana you have to generate for any knowledge you have to do you need a virti so you're generating a vritti how do you generate a british go to class read about brahman you know study the upanishads meditate upon it think deeply upon it what's what are you doing all of it is encapsulated in one term you're trying to get a correct british about brahman a precise with the focus ritti directed vitti about brahman this british is being generated so that the attention is turned to brahman and it basically first thing is it's turned attention away from the external world and invertize it the only reason why we can't realize our real nature is because we are continuously focused outwards either we are using our senses to be continuously engaged with sense objects or in our mind we are thinking about what we what we saw it smell taste touched or our own reactions of pleasure or misery or frustration fear anxiety all of it is about the world all of it is about the world about the body about the mind itself none of it is about the atman which is shining always in the mind none of it we have to turn it inwards that is done by british so what british created now the crucial question next step in knowledge palab the reflected consciousness must illumine the vritti but it's like you're asking a candle to lumen in the sun what's happening here is let me use a couple of examples one is at night the moonlight illumines the world so by and suppose there's no electricity and the world is illuminated by moonlight the world is the world here the moon is like the mind and the sun is like the atman i'll repeat that again sun is like atman pure consciousness moon is like the mind and the world is just the world how are we seeing the world light of the sun the sun is still there but we can't see the sun at night it is beyond the horizon so we can't see the sun the sun is shining on the moon and the moon is lit up by the light of the sun the sun's light lighting up the moon is like reflected consciousness do you see the model now sun is like pure consciousness the moon is like the mind and the moon light is like reflected consciousness and the reflected consciousness now shines on the earth how does it shine on the earth because the moon is facing the earth that moons facing the earth is like riti biyati the mind turned towards something and the reflected consciousness is like reflected sunlight which we now call moonlight is now shining on the earth and revealing things on the earth for us that is like ordinary knowledge pure consciousness shining on the mind the mind is turned to various things whatever the mind turns to and wherever there is the light of consciousness in the mind reveals whatever is in that virty it's called and that's knowledge now what happens during an eclipse what happens during an eclipse the moon comes between the sun and the earth and it's like the sunlight is falling on the moon but it's like the moon is now turned towards the sun as if and instead the moon moon reflecting that sunlight back to earth it sends the sunlight back to the sun as it were now let me ask you the question first of all note that the earth will not be lumen anymore dirt will be in darkness there will be an eclipse number one so there is a moment in enlightenment we we have to completely forget the world it goes away by itself but now the light of the moon which was sufficient to reveal things on earth at night now that light of the moon is traveling back to the sun will you say now the moon light has illumined the sun nonsense the sun shines with a million times more light than the moonlight and the sun and the moonlight also belongs to the sun it's not none other than the sun's light not at all required not at all required the sun reveals itself let us see let us see so it's a sort of example which works well but not too well but the sun reveals itself similarly in um brahma-gyana enlightenment it is necessary for the mind to turn away from the world and be focused on brahman how do you do that by shavana mananatya by constant focus inquiry by meditation and prayer and purification of the mind all of those practices entire host of practices enabling you to turn away from the world let go of our death grip on the world and focus on brahman on our real self so will that by that will be no brahman no no the mind cannot know brahman but it turns away from the world towards brahman this is called british can it do with brahman of course or what we are trying to do all the time is brahman when we are studying reading thinking hearing reasoning about it we are trying to raise awarity about brahman can it do written what brahman the mind can do with the about brahman is there falafti reflected consciousness revealing the ultimate consciousness no it is not necessary and it technically it will be there because just like the moonlight technically travels back towards the sun it's reflected back not at all necessary not necessary and it cannot it need not it cannot reveal the sun similarly the phalab the reflected consciousness in the mind it cannot it need not reveal the atman the atman blazes forth that is what is called the atman revealing itself in vedanta terms it's called swap prakasha self-luminous there's only one self-luminous thing the atman that shining everything else shines by its light everything is lit up and that one is you the real you you shining everything else shines by your light everything is revealed that real you shines forth not that it was not shining till now just we didn't see it we didn't recognize it it was shining all the time is shining now will continue shining all the time even time is revealed by it time and space are also revealed by that shining so that that ever luminous atman shines forth in devotional language what do we say it's not that you catch hold of god god reveals himself for herself god gives us the vision or a vision of god it's not that you have earned it or you have grasped god you have realized god no that's the devotional language in philosophical language consciousness is self-luminous upshot all of that can i put the answer in um one sentence is the mind required for enlightenment or not answer is yes and no yes in what sense no in what sense yes now we can put it very precisely yes vritti biapti is necessary one must make the effort one must direct one's consciousness away mind away from the world towards god towards brahman towards the self and falafti is not necessary yeah it is completely unnecessary so in that sense the atman or brahman is beyond the mind it is true when the kane openshad says when the what the mind cannot think about what the mind cannot reveal the mind can reveal the rose to you through vritti bipti and palab but the mind cannot reveal atman to you there will be written baptism but not necessarily cannot be done the atman shines forth subprakasha in that sense the mind cannot reveal the atman it is the atman which reveals the mind does the moonlight reveal the sun or the sun reveals the moon i said two examples i'll give even a simpler example is the little kids i remember we used to have um tiffin and tiffin time you know uh in in school and our parents used to pack little things in different boxes and tiffin boxes used to be quite shiny so after eating we would be naughty you know like we would shine in the playgrounds we would shine the sunlight back on the faces of our friends and it'll flash from a distance so what am i doing i'm using the sunlight and reflecting it back on something if i want to see something in a dark room i go from outside and reflect the sunlight with my shiny tiffin plate into that room and i can focus it's like a beam of light it can see what's in a unlit room that's how worldly knowledge happens focusing the participant plate with dapty and the sunlight reflected from the different reflected sunlight direct sunlight does not go into the dark room the reflected sunlight is falafti but now suppose i want to illumine the sun itself i turn the tiffin blade towards the sun of course i have to turn towards the sun to see the sun but is the little reflected light from the different plate illumining the sun of course not it's blazing forth with a billion times the light and even the tiny flash of light from the tipping plate also belongs to the sun similarly all consciousness in our our activities day-to-day life our all our knowledge is lit up by the utmon itself through the reflected consciousness and when the atman reveals itself you reveal yourself to yourself you see it's always revealed it's a question of recognizing it that question of recognizing that's done by the british so when the brethren go nishad says mana sahih vanudar shtabbyam by the mind alone it can be seen it's absolutely right when they can open right in what sense necessary without that never the ken openishad says by the mind it cannot be realized absolutely right in what sense falafel not necessary so both are reconciled it is necessary for the mind and it is mind is also it's beyond the mind it cannot be done by the mind now this is the philosophical aspect the practical aspect of it i just mentioned something here why the first question vikram asks difficult he says mind cannot realize it and ravi chandra ravi shankar he says the mind reveals it is it part of vidya maya why is it difficult for the mind to reveal the other one why is it difficult for the mind the reason is the mind knows only objects why that's how the mind is designed the eyes will know only objects out there the eyes cannot see themselves they cannot you know you can see a reflection of your eyes you can see a picture a selfie of your eyes but the eyes the way the eyes are seeing that flower that way the eyes cannot see themselves in philosophy they call it the problem of self reflexivity see this fingertip i can touch other things with the fingertip i can even touch other fingers with this fingertip but this fingertip cannot touch itself so the mind can knows only objects and when the mind after having read about vedanta and atman and the witness consciousness all of that begins to feel i've got it the immediate tendency is now how do i experience it but what does the mind experience only objects it will try to experience it objectively won't work you can have the most extraordinary visions but it's still the atman plus a name and form mystical visions it's atman plus a name and form see even this is the atman plus name and form when you look at the flower it is the same atman there is the name and form of a red flower only thing is this is a part of avidyamaya what ravi has said the amaya the maya of ignorance it covers the real nature of atman and our attention is drawn to it the world our attention is drawn to the world through ragadvesha likes and dislikes hate or love fear or temptation a terror or temptation i am scared of it of what not the utmon name and for i i really want it i am in temptation of what not the atman name and for so this is what is happening to me in the world we are distracted by it the underlying nature of the atman is revealed by some names and forms which are called vidyamaya so those are the mystical experiences of gods and goddesses which you know all great mystics have had in different religions so there also name and form is involved if you vedant asks this question did you see it yes then it's not the atman i'm sorry if you saw it it's an object to you an object to your consciousness you could have seen it outside you could have seen it in your mind it's an object so this is the story of the tenth person i will not narrate it here we all know the story how people were counting looking for the tenth person counting one two three four five six seven eight nine and unable to find the tenth person why i am the tenth person i am i'm not counting myself but why not why not why is it so difficult it's because i have been used to finding the people outside where did i find the nine persons out there one two three four five six seven eight nine i have pretty good cause to think there must be a tenth person there can't find him so the tenth person is not there it took somebody to point out to me that you turn your attention this way towards you the counter and you will see that you are the tenth person even there in the example um it is still you know i am a body here is a body and i can count one more body if you turn my attention towards the body i can count it ten imagine how much more difficult it is for the atman it is not a body it's not a mind not even a thought what will you count as the tenth what will you count as i the atman it can never ever be objectified the tendency of the mind is to objectify that's the problem that vikram is facing after getting a grasp on what vedanta is saying then this tendency of trying to experience the atman as an object comes we may not put it in these words i may even say i am trying to experience the pure subject you can't experience it that way what you are trying to do is that making the finger tip feel itself can't so it can't be done it can be done in the way which i've just described the way is through sadhana three levels through the level of purification of mind concentration of mind and removal of ignorance we have talked about it many times in the past the first level of obscuration what it does is at the grossest level of obscuration the mind has so much conditioning it will not allow you to be interested in vedanta in any kind of spirituality we are so engrossed in the world outside sounds and forms and fears and temptations so no no interest even talk of vedanta will if you ever hear about it talk about any spirituality at all you hear about it you will find it's not pertinent i'm not interested in it either i'm doing well things are going well for me i'm rich and healthy and i'm all my projects are successful and i have many wonderful things yet to accomplish in life what is all this you're talking about doesn't seem of any use to me or the other way around i have too many problems i've got i'm sick and poor and lonely and i have i have so many unhappinesses i have no time to think about your philosophies unfortunate because this is the only thing that can help really as the mind is purified either through a long and painful process of experience in life and begins to calm down and think that this is not helping or by deliberate sadhana by the grace of the guru you actually do sadhana which is karma yoga then one becomes interested at that point also one may think that yes it is true these things seem real maybe god is real or utman is real but but it's not for me it's too difficult you know it's only some great monks and spiritual seekers and mystics not for me or not in this life that's also trick of the mind then the next level comes when one is convinced such a thing is there and one is pursuing it the mind is scattered so the mind has to be trained by systematically in meditation to focus otherwise the virtue will not come the focus of the mind is necessary so through japa and dhyana and meditation bhakti one big role bhakti plays devotion to god plays is taking our attention the flow of our emotions to the world directing it towards god the love of the world is collected and put towards god it doesn't matter what happens in the world what matters is that i love my lord and my attention is gone god finally in a focused and purified mind you come to vedanta stay with vedanta so to for both vikram i will say that stay with vedanta the preliminary part of vedanta the fourfold qualification and the hearing again and again and again so these obscurations will be cleared away okay thank you swamiji yes that is a full talk in itself i was going to say on behalf of everybody wow thank you um so the next question is from sujan m who's from bangalore in india my question is related to text number 45 46 of vedanta sarah where you mentioned that the experience of deep sleep is recorded by ignorance if it is general ignorance or maya how can it record something memory is not present in deep sleep then how can it recall the experience when we wake up maya has two powers veiling power and projecting power the projecting power doesn't work in deep sleep is it the veil created by maya that has some sort of hole in it for a glimpse of brahman this question is important to me as you mentioned about the trap door during text number 69 okay this is somebody who's listening very carefully to the vedanta classes the question is you say that vedanta says that deep sleep is also an experience after all we wake up and we say i slept happily i did not know anything but wait a minute you wake up and you're talking about it then there must be some kind of memory involved but but vedanta itself says that the mind has stopped working in deep sleep you can't think you can't remember you can't comprehend you don't even have the sense of i let alone memory in ordinary things we can say yesterday i saw or this morning i saw some snow snowflakes snowfall in the morning now i can recollect it why because i actually saw it with my eyes and it was recorded in my memory mind was working there was attention all of that was there the mind recorded it memory was there now i can recollect things from my memory but in deep sleep the mind was not working he was asleep how then do we re recall the so-called experience of deep sleep that's the question and the answer is given as he has pointed out in vedanta sarah very clearly the answer is exactly what he has said again what does it mean by the extremely subtle modifications of agana look at the word britti which we used earlier same written word is used here by the extremely subtle modifications of the of ghana ignorance deep sleep is recorded what does that mean as he says how can that happen ignorance cannot record anything but actually ignorance can see one thing is it's it's a little bit of a problem a little bit of an embarrassment for advaita vedanta it's something that some bookkeeping has to be done to adjust things you have just said deep sleep is is an experience and you've also said that there is no memory of no memory cannot work there then how do you recall that experience how do you even justify that certain experience how do you claim that it's an experience without a memory so um vedanta has developed an escape route for for this it says that oh but there is something like a memory notice that it's also something like an experience it's not an experience like we have in a waking state in the waking state experience means senses are working mind is working and there's that full range of pull up teeth everything is there so also in dreams we have an internal experience and there is clearly subject object deep sleep no subject object and even if the deep sleep experience is an experience notice the uniqueness of that experience every deep sleep is like every other deep sleep when you fall asleep every dream is different from every dream every day's waking is different from every other day's waking but every deep sleep we have ever had is exactly the same there is no fee it's featureless no objects no subject subject object melded together into one blankness even the sense of time i slept for a long time or short time that we know only after waking up there is no length so called of the deep sleep also it's just blank all the time it's the same not only that all our deep sleeps yours and mine and everybody else in the world and whoever has experienced deep sleep throughout history they've experienced exactly the same thing so it's a very if it's an experience it's a very peculiar kind of experience that kind of experience can be and is recorded in agana which is what is called our anandamaya kosha and it is part of maya he's saying it's maya it is a part it's a fraction of maya maya as we know can be subdivided um you've studied vedanta sars all these things are very clearly discussed there maya has in any number of parts and those parts are the are the anandamaya kosha for each individual jiva the the blankness we experience in deep sleep it is dynamic you see if you ask no no tell me how can it record something it can record bit because it changes to record something there must be a change your tape recorder or your digital devices there's a little change there which records something so that is again a dynamic is ignorance dynamic yes it is how do you know that because notice what how we defined ignorance in vedanta sarah it is thomas and in sankhya cosmology sattva rajas and thomas are the constituents of prakriti and they're continuously changing sattva into rajas rajas into thomas thomas and to rajas rajas into sattva they're in continuous change they're dynamic this is this dynamic nature of ignorance which allows it to record beyond this no more details can be given because there's nothing more to record there are no details anyway it is all the same there's a blankness now the trapdoor which he mentions that is not part of vedansa it's just something that occurred to me i had um heard or read in the in the talks given by a points out something subtle he says deep sleep is an experience it's an absence an experience of absence not the absence of experience but an experience of blankness of absence just as we are experiencing objects here in dreams we are experiencing thoughts and imaginations in deep sleep we are experiencing the absence of thoughts imagination subjects but the ego which says i slept happily i did not know anything that is the waking ego the ego which wake after waking up it says this that ego was not there it was not at that deep sleep it was not that the ego was there saying i am sleeping happily i'm not experiencing anything never that sort of thing doesn't happen in deep sleep that ego was not there yet there was an experience handed over through a kind of deep memory that's why the word use used ati sukshmabi extremely subtle movements of a ghana why extremely subtle because the word subtle is reserved for the mind grows for the body subtle for the mind then what will you say about something if anything happens at the level of ignorance again extremely subtle ati it's because of those movements at the level of agyana that experience has been recorded and that was illumined by what by pure consciousness by the by the reflected consciousness let us say pure consciousness the witness consciousness illumines the movement the the deep sleep experience that is handed over upon waking up and this waking up ego makes a false claim i slept happily you should say no you did not you weren't even there if you can catch that little trick it's like a fault line in maya and the it's a little fault line in in the matrix let us say matrix movie which is nicely trapped us in this illusion it seems all very real and nice there are little cracks here and there here's a little crack it doesn't gel together it's a very subtle point but it's interesting if you can catch what is being said it's worth thinking about this question is from erb from princeton new jersey i am intrigued by the thought i i understand the i thought as a spontaneous modification of the mind with no external or internal stimuli this contrasts with all other thoughts of the mind which arise either from external sensory inputs or internal stimuli from memory maybe this can also explain how the i thought arises spontaneously in the mind even during deep sleep where the mind is not active and then recalled in the waking state one is my understanding of the i thought correct two can you also please explain how an investigation of the source of i would lead to the source atman which is thought free yes this understanding is correct not only is the understanding correct that the very fact that attention has been drawn to the eye the i thought this is uh this is very good this is extremely helpful for vedanta the one thought that is useful for us is the i thought not that it is the ultimate reality but it is it is it leads or points to the ultimate reality so the i thought uh investigation into the i thought does it lead to the ultimate reality yes seventh mantra maybe the most important text in vedanta the ancient upanishads it says um [Music] that will lead to enlightenment that continuous this thought of i is bubbling up now you're right that the eyes out is unique first of all let us grasp that the eye thought is a function of the mind as you see it is an i thought and thinking is the very nature of the mind what is the mind constituted of thoughts and these thoughts are of various kinds in vedanta broadly these are classified the mind itself is classified into four the mind itself is called antakarana inner instrument inner instrument proving there by two things one it is not an external instrument what's an external instrument like our sense organs they are in contact with the external world eyes are in contact with forms ears are in contact with sounds skin with touch and so on nose with smell and so on the mind is not directly in contact with forms or sound or anything the mind gets this information from the senses so the senses are called external instruments in contrast to these the mind is called the inner instrument it gathers information from the external world through the senses but it is not directly in contact with the external world the second thing we gather about the mind is that it's an instrument it's not you that's an important point an instrument is not you when i'm speaking through the microphone i'm not the microphone thank god so uh an instrument is not you you are the user of the instrument you are the user of the mind the internal instrument and the external instrument the senses the i thought is one of these thoughts the inner instrument so called mind inner instrument in vedanta four aspects or four functions are distinguished the mind itself it's just and then chit the memory and then uh buddhi intellect understanding and ahamkara i ego so the i thought is one of the functionings of this inner instrument is one of the functionings of the mind i'm using the mind in a broad sense each of these functionings has been precisely defined so what is the definition of the i thought what is the definition of i thought the ego it is that thought the same word again britti all today's whole session seems to be written the same thought the same briti um which that that that thought which is of the form of abhimaan the appropriating function what does appropriating function mean whatever else is going on in that inner environment this thought this i thought its one function is to say it's mine so a thought comes the i thought will say i am thinking you see a flower and you don't you don't just say flowers you say i see a flower a desire for a cookie cups you don't say cookie desire you say i desire a cookie i where is this notice everywhere the eye is inserted right now talking you don't say talking is happening what will what will you say i am talking what's the fact talking is happening but who is this stranger i which comes in and says i am talking i am speaking so this i is connected with all the functionings of the mind with all the functionings of the motor organs also walking talking grasping all of this everything that is happening in the body and mind the eye consciously happening the eye appropriates you and that's the function of the eye why would you do that very important function that lends unity to everything that's happening in the body mind so you feel this jiva i am a sentient being with all these things happening around me pleasure pain desire memory understanding activities my role my identity my personality my story all of that is centered around the eye so you can see it's a very vital function psychologically it's a very very important function otherwise you just fall apart the whole thing would just be processes going on another curious thing about the eye generally let me put it this way words have reference when you speak a word you mean something when i say clock the word clock is a word and this is the object referent this is the object similarly mic word this is the object flower it's a word that's the object body it's the word this is the object now when we all use words we all mean the same thing by those words when you say when i say clock when i'm talking about this clock i mean this clock when you say clock and you mean this clock you mean this clock all of the all of us when if we say clock we mean this thing now so all of us use words in the same way otherwise conversation wouldn't be possible if you made something by chair and you you meant by chair a table and i meant by chair a cookie we couldn't talk to each other we all mean the same thing by the same words but notice there's one unique word i all of us use the word i but by that all of us each of us means a unique different thing not the same thing by i i don't mean what you mean by i by i she doesn't mean what you mean by i each of us means something else by i so is this word i an exception to the rule what is the rule when you use words they must be in the same things but when we use the word i what does it refer to something separate if you follow vedanta the rule is reestablished because vedanta says ultimately the i refers all the time when we are seeing i we all refer to the same thing actually the atman which is one for all of us but we don't know that why don't we know that why is this peculiar situation because the i as it functions because of its function what has happened is it is not really the fault of the eye there is this veil of ignorance which hides the real atman the real self and the i instead of referring to the real self it now refers to body mind and each case body mind is different so the eye now begins to refer to different things different persons so this is how it is going on now it's a false situation it we are the witness we are the witness of the eye forgetting ourselves we have identified ourselves with the eye the first thing to do is to break away from the shackles of the eye that's why though ultimately the eye has is not to be blamed but right now the real villain is i when we are in bondage when we are in samsara every religious path every spiritual path it it targets that i the ego whether it is the path of devotion where the eye the ego is minimized in the front of a bigger eye god we make ourselves smaller and smaller and smaller till we make the ego disappear and thus is the real self set free or in the path of karma yoga where the eye is minimized the eye of the others is maximized i sacrifice this little life for the uh for the welfare of others just the reversal of what i've been doing so far everything for i this little lie this little ghost in the body everything in the universe is pulled to this food and riches and pleasures and name and fame and success and praise all of it for in service of what this little eye and what this is the little eye we don't know it's like a ghost in the machine now in karma yoga that is reversed you say the i not i but this all the world whatev whatever they need unselfish action life lived unselfishly swami vivekananda says the let all vision sees you realize that you are the atman or if you cannot dream but truer dreams which are eternal love and service free it's still a dream still within ignorance but much better reduces the eye in raja yoga through samadhi nirodha all the functionings of the mind all thoughts including i thought shut down at least for a short while and in gyana the real referent of the eye is discovered referent clock word clock object i word what atman but right now body mind so in vedanta that is by investigation into the eye the real what is what does the i really refer to that is discovered again you have to get rid of the that small eye and see ramakrishna put it this way the ripe eye and the under eye so he says even after all of this by bhakti by karma yoga by meditation or ultimately by vedantic self-inquiry the ultimate path all of this you discover the reality but i will come back he says the rascal will come back now you have to give it a status now what was the earlier what was it status all powerful the great ego i i was completely one with it now i know i am not it. first step is to say that i am not any of the functions of the mind including ego i'm not mind i'm not intellect i'm not memory i'm not ego now it comes back again when sriram krishna says you have to give it a status what is the status he says let the rascal remain in bengali let it remain as the servant i the lord is my master i am the servant this is a devotional attitude or if you are on the path of knowledge he says let it remain as aminity and the eternal ever pure ever shining consciousness the atman that's also the small eye speaking but it's that that knowledge helps it to transcend its its little nature it points to the atman one more point this is from the panchalashi the i the word i is has three meanings the word i has three meanings one meaning for those who are in ignorance and two meanings for those who are enlightened but those who are in ignorance the word i meaning means referent clock meaning this object i meaning this body and mind for whom for the ignorant that's meaning number one what is the meaning number one body mind i means body mind for whom ignorant person then the two other meanings were enlightened for the enlightened person after enlightenment i realized that i am not the i. i'm of the nature of pure consciousness under the nature of shiva i am not the nature of sheba that is my nature i shine upon the eye i am the witness of the eye but i am not the i itself i am not a thought so that is the real meaning of the eye which is known to the enlightened person what is i aham brahmasmi there is no longer the little i the little i points to brahman so aham brahmas mean that is the real knowledge of the i which is known to or which is realized by enlightened people and they use i in a third sense again to refer to body and mind but not truly so just for transacting with us when srirama krishna says i will have a glass of water sometimes he refers to the body and mind as this he looked at his picture he said this will be worshipped and in the households from time to come this or sometimes he says my hand is broken or i shall drink a glass of water i shall go to calcutta what will go to calcutta brahman will go to calcutta no this body and mind will go to calcutta but instead of speaking that roundabout way put this body and mind in one carriage and take it to calcutta he says i'll go to calcutta and vedanta says approves of it it says after enlightenment don't be weird don't be weird don't yes he says just speak like everybody else act like everybody else must continue the transactions of the world must continue don't disrupt it you know the truth but now you have the two senses of the i the i as saccidananda which is known to you which is a clear reality for you and the eye as body and mind which you use in order to interact with people and let that continue i have seen any number of people very enthusiastic vedanta people the students writing to me i who have have now appearing as body and mind and with the name mishra i'm calling to i'm writing to you the same pure consciousness in the body and mind of sarva priyananda with this don't do that he said just say that i am mr mishra writing to you swami and vedanta approves of it that's the third meaning of the i you're not lying it's the third meaning of the i so i has three meanings one generally which people use body and mind that's the common meaning second one after enlightenment ahamram has me third after enlightenment in a secondary sense as the body my mind in sanskrit it's called gonarta i think they've run out of time we'll keep the questions for next time all right we had an intense session i see the questions are getting more and more subtle and more and more difficult but very good please take care stay safe stay well let the blessings of takuma and swamiji [Music] [Music] [Music]